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Programming => Manic Miner the Lost Levels => Topic started by: Flash on August 20, 2009, 06:05:39 PM

Title: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 20, 2009, 06:05:39 PM
Well, after much playing about (and Conveyor irritation) We are now at a stage to start the chronical.

So far... In a Galaxy far far away....... MMLL has been born. At the moment, the game plays, you can run, jump, etc, and all the onscreen objects work (hopefully) as they should.
I think the detection is now the same as the original, Though I have one tiny issue that may not be quite right.. It is so hard to tell as it is in a split-second. But, will see how it goes with things at the moment.

The next step I supose is to stick an enemy on the screen and work on the per-pixel (oh god) detection. This is something that I have not done before and may be a little bit of a 'task'... Not really sure at the moment. Perhaps the easiest way is to do a boundry check and if that passes, convert the sprites to a mask and compare bit patterns?

Oh well, here is another picture. This is simply using the level graphics from the spectrum version for now (with some from Andy's version(s)), and that is fine for testing. The background graphics are removed for clarity.

It does play nice and FAST!! (twitch gameplay on a platform game) and I think we are happy with it so far.

Things will slow down a little now re MMLL as I have a lot of reading that i MUST do. but we will keep the posts coming and perhaps post a simple demo soon.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 23, 2009, 07:37:10 PM
Well, here is a little playable demo..

At the moment you cannot collide with the enemies and die (this will need per-pixel detection - tricky for me :( )
Also, you cannot clear the level when all keys are collected, mainly because I have not made any more levels...

If anyone does get the chance to compare with the original and let me know of anything different (not that I am looking for 100% copy, but things like jump distance, height should be the same)

SF: Sorry your music is not in place as yet..

Also, the graphics are basic at the moment (apart from the bottom screen - for title, and little willy himself :) Lobo you sweetheart )

The game runs fast at the moment.. Not entirely sure what speed to have it run at, but I dont want it as pedestrian as the original.

(oh, and the sound messes up when you die - my fault)

EDIT: Demo version removed!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 23, 2009, 10:55:40 PM
Hah! Finished!
Ye, it's quite speedy, I like it compared to the original speed (if it can be called speed) as it allows to go about the level faster. However, some people might have a problem with this, so maybe to slow down a notch and see? Dunno.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on August 23, 2009, 11:35:32 PM
I can SO recognize Lobo's style in that titlescreen.

It sorta reminds me of something.... ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 24, 2009, 12:33:00 AM
I was going to bed and sleeped in hours (but forget to poweroff the machine), I was excepted you have need have time and see you can get the XmPlay to work, so fine it not in the early demo :-D.

godnight (but downloaded the demo).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 24, 2009, 06:18:29 PM
That's a horrible screen and style is worse, needs pet shop boys to play in the background for punishment!!! 8)

Btw, Flash, that bottom menu screen (with keyboard) Ok? I have maybe cavern bkg, not so sure, you have to be careful with these thingies as they can't be too detailed (lotsa action happening in the foreground).  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 24, 2009, 07:10:25 PM
Sorry I had not replied mate..

The keyboard screen is really nice.. But.. I still just have no idea what I am doing with both the title screen and lower ingame screen at the moment?
The bottom screen, perhaps a book overlaid on soil with diamonds and gold in it (I could add little glistens??). The book showing the story of the lost levels? (but not in old english style, perhaps a strong hand written font?)

With regards to level backgrounds. I know what you mean. If they clash too much with the level, then things will get a bit muddy.. Something that I want to avoid.
On the first level of MMLL (as displayed first on the pictures of the game), Willy is returning home after his jaunt to the mines and has forgot his keys. He needs to climb in through the roof. On that level, it needs a land mass and then a sky of some sort? the land mass (or ground :)) needs to follow the contour of the level layout.. So, still a bit lost with that at the moment. Main concern is to get a level fully playable first i think?

I have sorted out the level structure. Each level can have (at the moment) 7 enemies (though it could have 112 LOL) and each has lots of properties, enabling eugines, kongs, etc. Also, each level 'can' have a seperate background and foreground. The level states what one it wants from the bank. This has the bonus that the same cavern background can be used for several levels and also a foreground can be used if wished (eg, the first level has space for some tree branches to be infront of the player at safe areas - or vines/plants).
The level structure will also allow the use of other collectable objects and platforms. So, there is the oportunity of locked doors etc 'if' we decide that the 20 lost levels are not good enough and decide on "manic miner remix"? Who knows..

The engine for the game is easy! If I did not work, the entire game structure could have easily been written in a couple of days.. But, I was thinking of adding some particle effects and stuff. At the moment, I am using simple sprite anims for when you collect an object and also for when you land after a long fall. But, I was thinking of using the free sprites (120 of them LOL) for these effects... not sure as yet..

Sorry, I digressed...

The cavern background, send it and I will put it in (must use the same pallete though - do you need me to send a file with the palette?). At least we can see how it all works?

Thanks so much for your continued enfusi.. enthewsi.... inphewsiat... interest...

I just adore your work... ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 24, 2009, 07:12:21 PM
Once a couple of levels are playable, I will do a post on RR...

I know that Scottige would like to see how it is coming on..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 24, 2009, 07:36:14 PM
Err, you lost me at 'Sorry...'  :D
Ok, send the palette so I can get the cave bkg infused and then let me know about the rest once you need it.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 25, 2009, 08:15:59 PM
Ok, just a little demo, and an extra alien on screen.. This was just to check the detection.

The game now has xm music (Thanks HK and SF)

I am not happy with the 'death' detection at the moment. It needs to de a bit looser.

The alien detection just uses bounding box checking at the moment, but it will have pixel detection at some point.

Well, that's it for now.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 25, 2009, 08:22:54 PM
Here is a screen with Lobo's background.

I think it is gonna be tricky to make the platforms and sprites stand out... but I have Faith (and not in the George Michael way!)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 25, 2009, 08:36:41 PM
Yep, that's what I was afraid of. Definitely everything needs to be darker, including that one.

I mean, every bkg needs to be darker!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 25, 2009, 08:58:23 PM
There is to many different colors that doesn't fit 100% with the background I think, so foreground need work (even with diddecent colors) and then it might work (even its a nice one).

In the H.E.R.O remake I created in the past I realized I diddent want to have a background to avoid that issue (or use a simple one) and focus on the foreground instead (but I was planned a very simple detail layer bit never did that) and focus on the gameplay elements.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 25, 2009, 09:01:38 PM
The problem is that its fixed palette so that's as darkest as foreground can go. I've sent the other bkg though, those should be easier to adjust than foreground, will see what Flash does, dunno yet as this is all more of a test.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 25, 2009, 10:06:20 PM
Here it is with your darker background Lobo,

I wonder if the background was modified to be more specific to the level if it would fit better? No point with this level as it will not be in the final game.. I will start working on the main levels soon. Just need to crack the Oric version so I can play level 17 properly and check that out. MM level 1 was just easier for now.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 25, 2009, 10:44:29 PM
Probably, yes. For that I need every level though. Still, most of it will probably have to be very simple, in details and amount of colors as there isn't too many variations in palette there.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 25, 2009, 10:54:26 PM
Well, the palette can be modified. It was only a quck one I made for the original level test.

I will send you some stuff a bit later. But for now, I really don't wanna bog you down mate :)

I have plenty to play with...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 25, 2009, 11:51:58 PM
No worries, whenever you have stuff sorted out, we'll do some tricks about it. I got a wristwatch to draw anyway.
Oh, my! Look at the time!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 26, 2009, 05:07:32 AM
Lol the music works, howover it still need tweeks :-D, dosent reallly like the organ in beginning, when drums start it works ok. But I do looking on that.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on August 26, 2009, 05:22:06 AM
Don't worry about the darkness of the background as that can be adjusted using the BLEND registers. Infact I think it would be cool if you darken the background using a BLEND and then use the fxSpotlight effect along with the BLEND register instead of a a WINDOW to lighten up an area just in front of Willy's helment (ahem so to speak).

Check out fxFade from Warhawk along with fxFadeBlack and fxSpotlight. All the code to do such an effect is pretty much already written. I can implement it when I have a bit of spare time away from TDG.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 26, 2009, 06:30:25 AM
HK.. That does sound like a great idea for the underground levels mate :)

I was also thinking of adding a mask to willy (a willy mask?) so he has a black border of 1 pix using a seperate sprite (of which I have TONS free)

SF: The music sounds great mate. The only bit I am unsure about is the wibbly sound heard behind the main theme.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on August 26, 2009, 12:57:06 PM
Just wanted to mention that xm playback has been enabled thanks to sverx's fantastic libxm7 library. And it's good to see he has come to our boards and we welcome him :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on August 26, 2009, 02:29:07 PM
Just wanted to mention that I've been amazed by your work (WarhawkDS) and very proud if I can somehow give some help with the next one  :)  :)  :)

libXM7 is still a wip, so feel free to comment/suggest about it, either here or in libXM7 forum.

And, well... thanks for your warm welcome too! :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 26, 2009, 03:28:09 PM
Thanks for the kind words on Warhawk - we will never tire of hearing that ;)

You are always welcome to chip in on anything on these forums, that is why we both try to post progress/problems etc.

Thanks!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 26, 2009, 03:59:04 PM
It was me that was really want that lib because I prefer XM music rather than mod music to the next 2 games. The only problem is samples was quite high, but I can do something with it.

Its somebody app I can download so I can compile my self, so I better can test how it perferm in a emulator? What shall I do (includning subsongs in same module, due I wont waste memory)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 26, 2009, 04:03:09 PM
Been having a little fiddle today and levels now can be set and work with different backgrounds. Animation works on everything now and all I have left to do is add the 'level exit' so a level can be cleared, then it is ULP!!! Pixel 2 pixel detection for sprites... Hurrah!!
So, may have a playable game in the next few days (all going well)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 26, 2009, 04:37:15 PM
Personly if using background, I think Foreground need some workout too, due its too many diffecent colors and style (even I known this is still just a test and early).

Im soon go back to Miner music again and also fix volume settings etc on the xm as well too and other tunes too.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on August 27, 2009, 06:38:46 AM
It was me that was really want that lib because I prefer XM music rather than mod music to the next 2 games. The only problem is samples was quite high, but I can do something with it.
Its somebody app I can download so I can compile my self, so I better can test how it perferm in a emulator? What shall I do (includning subsongs in same module, due I wont waste memory)?

To lower overall module volume you could -for example- use Gxx effect once at the beginning of each module (or in the beginning of each section, if you're going to start from a different pattern than the first) ... btw I would raise the volume of the sound effects instead of lowering the background music, if possible. IMHO, of course.

If you want to preview your XM(s) with libXM7 you can use XM7Play. It also includes an optimizer: if this writes something -so, if it 'optimize' samples- then it means there's some work that should be done on them (DS has some quite BIG limitations, especially with samples having loops). You can use the player even on an emulator, DLDI patching it (well, I never did it myself and I think it anyway won't be the same as using it on a real NDS...)

About having 'subsongs' in the same module: it's surely a good idea if you have many songs sharing many samples and you need to save memory, it's an useless complication otherwise ::)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 27, 2009, 08:10:10 AM
I normally reuse instruments when I can, even memory might not been a issue here. So its might a good idea, if you can add that feature in your player.

PS. There no Gxx command in XM files, G is not a number in a hex file. There is a Cxx command, but its for instrument volume, so I think you need to add a volume main argument as well to parse under loading.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on August 27, 2009, 08:42:21 AM
I normally reuse instruments when I can, even memory might not been a issue here. So its might a good idea, if you can add that feature in your player.
PS. There no Gxx command in XM files, G is not a number in a hex file. There is a Cxx command, but its for instrument volume, so I think you need to add a volume main argument as well to parse under loading.

The library already supports the use of 'subsongs' in a single XM file, thru the XM7_PlayModuleFromPos() function, so it's ok to have more than 1 song in a XM file. The player, on the other hand, has no way to jump to a specific pattern so actually you should prepare separate XMs to be able to hear them... :(

And about Gxx effect... eXtended Module (XM) format supports also a superset of MOD effects (0 to F) so also the following exists (M=has memory):

- Gxx Set global volume
- Hxy Slide global volume up or down (M)
- Kxx Key off
- Lxx Set envelope position
- Pxy Panning slide (M)
- Rxy Retrig note with volume slide (M)
- Txy Tremor (M)
- X1x Extra fine portamento up (M)
- X2x Extra fine portamento down (M)

For example check this video: http://vimeo.com/3364671 , from 1:50 on, Raina uses effect Lxx on channels 12 to 15 :)

Bye!



Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 27, 2009, 09:08:16 AM
These are not supported in Skale Tracker yet in that version I use, so I might move to another tracker for finalize it using these extended commands. The global volume was a quite too high in the Miner demo I got.

It would been nice to change volume directly as well using a seperate function, so volume can been controlled by a user example in a pause menu seperated for music and SFX...

Normally it only need to been started from contain position and let me doing which pattern that should been played on that position. The patterns in Miner module do also not fellow position directly and sometimes replay again for some patterns. That part works fine in the early miner demo.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on August 27, 2009, 09:20:08 AM
These are not supported in Skale Tracker yet in that version I use, so I might move to another tracker for finalize it using these extended commands. The global volume was a quite too high in the Miner demo I got.

I can suggest MilkyTracker... or maybe you just need to update your SkaleTracker to the latest version (sorry, I really don't know  :-X ).

It would been nice to change volume directly as well using a seperate function, so volume can been controlled by a user example in a pause menu seperated for music and SFX...

I totally agree, and that's on the development wish list already :) No deadline, btw...

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 27, 2009, 09:33:53 AM
you can just use the same command like Gxx, just change it directly by the new function..... If the feature is added, then I have not a plan to use the Gxx command, so it would not conflict.

Im are also begin to do a simple version of An der schönen blauen Donau which also contain in the original sid. So I guess it should been in the game as well. Its sound very much a old mod now ;-D.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on August 27, 2009, 10:19:23 AM
Also just so there is no confusion I'm using MaxMod in TDG not libxm7. I think libxm7 is great but libnds uses MaxMod so that's why I'm using it. On the other hand libxm7 was the perfect solution for MMLL because it doesn't use libnds.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on August 27, 2009, 11:18:00 AM
Also just so there is no confusion I'm using MaxMod in TDG not libxm7. I think libxm7 is great but libnds uses MaxMod so that's why I'm using it. On the other hand libxm7 was the perfect solution for MMLL because it doesn't use libnds.

MaxMod is great, expecially if you need S3M/IT support or more than 16 audio channels. Anyway libXM7 works with libnds as well, using FIFO exactly like MaxMod does. Check the source example on my website (...and excuse my shameless self-promotion ;) )

Bye! :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on August 27, 2009, 11:23:49 AM
you can just use the same command like Gxx, just change it directly by the new function...

That would be bad, because tunes use Gxx (and Hxy) to fade in/out and I should't disturb that. There will be a separate 'music' volume control... but I'm not working on that project actually, so you can't count on this feature been added soon, sorry.

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on August 27, 2009, 11:34:48 AM
I wont use Gxx extracly in this project, due these tunes I create does not need these at all. Normally I use use volume functions to do the fading (which is none in Miner tunes), so it would not break in this project.... Yes I know others tunes might do that.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 27, 2009, 07:57:10 PM
Another demo...

Well, you can now clear levels...

It is a start...

The game is slowed down, not sure if I prefer it faster?

Also, I have a strange problem, If I slow one level another may be faster for no real reason (ie. demo level 2)

I also have to add impassable conveyors. (these are needed on the Oric level 17 - level 1 here)

Oh, the bit at the bottom is for the story of the game - at some point.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 27, 2009, 10:19:28 PM
I should not really post this here, but this is the original RetroGamer (Buy them all) article that spurred the conversion

(this will be deleted if requested by the Rev. etc)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on August 30, 2009, 01:33:59 AM
Didn't have time to test the latest version until now. I prefer the old speed (faster) much much much....much more.
This one feels very...dragging.   ;)
Other than that, what's the progress? I thought I said until Monday.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on August 30, 2009, 08:37:11 AM
Maybe you could add powerups so you can go faster? And place them behind the character so people can decide to use them or not. The game is coming along really nicely though Flash. I have played a few games but really look forward to that per-pixel detection as it's really hard to judge things right now. I also think there should be per pixel detection on things like the plants but if it's not how it works in the original probably not worth doing.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 30, 2009, 09:35:26 AM
The detection on the plants etc only detects the central 6 pixels (the original detected 8 pixels square - well the colour atribute for that char i believe), this is to make it easier because of the extra speed. Perhaps (after sprite per pixel) I may be able to do it if colmapedit only outputs pixel values for objects with a colmap value of 64 or greater? But.. this is quite a big hit on size for a pixel map for each level. Perhaps if I read the tile and use the bit pattern on the fly.. I will look into it mate.

Not sure about powerups, but... as you know, I was thinking of a "manic 'manic miner' mode" that uses a completely different control method that has inertia and acceleration. I will play with that when a few levels are done and the little tweaks are sorted. I am only spending around 1-2 hours a day on it, but hopefully have a bit more time tonight.

HK: Glad you like how it is going mate - means a lot to me. (thanks for the help with per-pixel ideas)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 30, 2009, 09:54:22 AM
Didn't have time to test the latest version until now. I prefer the old speed (faster) much much much....much more.
This one feels very...dragging.   ;)
Other than that, what's the progress? I thought I said until Monday.
I thought I said Tuesday?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on August 30, 2009, 08:49:53 PM
Didn't have time to test the latest version until now. I prefer the old speed (faster) much much much....much more.
This one feels very...dragging.   ;)

I'm not sure where I stand on this one. After the first version this one does feel a bit slow'ish but on the other hand it's closer to the original games and I think the slower speed is better for the precise movement you need to be able to play it. Faster may be more fun (sometimes) but playing this version it found the speed was just right for planning and moving my way around the level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 30, 2009, 08:53:33 PM
I am divided on this one also...

I like it faster, but... on later levels this may make them very hard (that is a good thing really LOL)..

Sokky: Just reallised how easy this would be to turn into Horace... <snigger> (I wouldn't)

But, I am thinking (not sure) of adding a manic mode with controls in the same fashion as Horace.. That could be fun, Manic Miner with acceleration etc..? Bit of a job to add, and also perhaps needing some level mods to support it (ie. enemy speed)... hmmm...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 30, 2009, 09:00:10 PM
Just spent the best part of 3 hours adding per-pixel detection to the game for sprites.

This turned out to be harder than I thought as the sprite flipping still has the sprite stored as data unflipped (obviously). So, I had to check the flipping of both Willie and the enemies first and use different routines based on their orientation.. Thank god I had not added vertical flipping also.. LOL

Perhaps I made it harder by creating the masks on the fly?

Well, this is the first time I have ever done this in ASM and I am sure someone will say how easy it is in C or something, but it was a major pain for me..

I am sure the code could be tighter, but it works.. and that is the main thing? Isn't it? LOL

Well, here is the code.. posted for the fun of it.. and perhaps someone will show a better way?

PS. Sokky, I did reply on the page back!

Code: [Select]
collisionMonster:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r10, lr}

@ first grab our x,y coord into r0,r1
@ then loop through all monsters (1-7)
@ and check boundries
@ if a boundry check is true, THEN do a per pixel check

ldr r0,=spriteX+128
ldr r0,[r0] @ player X
ldr r1,=spriteY+128
ldr r1,[r1] @ player y

mov r10,#65 @ monster number (65-71)

collisionMonsterCheckLoop:

ldr r2,=spriteActive
ldr r2,[r2, r10, lsl#2]
cmp r2,#0
beq colMonFail

ldr r2,=spriteX
ldr r2,[r2,r10,lsl#2]
ldr r3,=spriteY
ldr r3,[r3,r10,lsl#2]

@ r0,r1=willy x/y
@ r2,r3=monst x/y

@ first, if px+15<mx or px>mx+15, no possible collision
add r0,#15
cmp r0,r2
sub r0,#15
blt colMonFail
add r2,#15
cmp r0,r2
sub r2,#15
bgt colMonFail
@ next, if py+15<my or py>my+15, no possible collision
add r1,#15
cmp r1,r3
sub r1,#15
blt colMonFail
add r3,#15
cmp r1,r3
sub r3,#15
bgt colMonFail

bl pixelDetect

colMonFail:
add r10,#1
cmp r10,#72
bne collisionMonsterCheckLoop

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r10, pc}

@-----------------------------------------------

pixelDetect:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r10, lr}

@ clear cmap
mov r0,#0
ldr r1,=colMonMap
ldr r2,=576
bl dmaFillWords

@ r10= number of the monster you have collided with
@ we need to find what the sprite is ( we will also have to plot backwards for hflip=1)

ldr r0,=spriteObj
ldr r0,[r0,r10,lsl#2] @ r0= sprite object (0-max)

@ now get the pointer to the memory adress of the image (each sprite = 256 bytes)

ldr r1,=SPRITE_GFX_SUB
lsl r0,#8 @ image * 256
add r1,r0 @ r1 should = pointer to image (8*8 tl)
add r2,r1,#64 @ r2 = 8*8 tr
add r3,r2,#64 @ r3 = 8*8 bl
add r4,r3,#64 @ r4 = 8*8 br

ldr r9,=spriteHFlip
ldr r9,[r9,r10,lsl#2] @ sprite flip? 0=normal 1=reversed

cmp r9,#0
bleq maskNormal @ grab data and shove to centre of colMonMap
blne maskFlipped @ for normal and flipped sprites

bl displaySpriteMap

@ now we need to make your x/y 0-47 and alien is plotted in colMonMap at 16,16

ldr r0,=spriteX
ldr r11,[r0,r10,lsl#2] @ r11=monster X
ldr r0,=spriteY
ldr r12,[r0,r10,lsl#2] @ r12=monster Y

ldr r0,=spriteX+128
ldr r0,[r0] @ r0=your X

sub r11,#16 @ r2 is now a diff value
sub r0,r11 @ r0= x coord 0-47

ldr r1,=spriteY+128
ldr r1,[r1] @ r0=your Y

sub r12,#16
sub r1,r12 @ r1= y coord 0-47

@ r0,r1 = x/y coord of you 0-47, so all we need to do is check against colMonMap at the x/y coord created here
@ we need 2 checks, one for normal and one for flipped... GOD!!!

ldr r2,=spriteHFlip+128
ldr r2,[r2] @ r2 = flip status

cmp r2,#0
bleq pixelCheckNormal
blne pixelCheckFlipped

cmp r12,#1 @ r12 returned to say we have hit (0=false)
bleq initDeath

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r10, pc}

@--------------------------- Grab normal data

maskNormal:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r12, lr}

ldr r5,=colMonMap
add r5,#768+16
add r6,r5,#8
add r7,r5,#384
add r8,r7,#8

@ r1,r2,r3,r4 = 4 seqments of original sprite image
@ r5,r6,r7,r8 = 4 segments to store to

mov r0,#0 @ counter (0-63)
mov r10,#0 @ byte counter (0-7)
mNormalLoop:

ldrb r9,[r1,r0]
strb r9,[r5,r0]
ldrb r9,[r2,r0]
strb r9,[r6,r0]
ldrb r9,[r3,r0]
strb r9,[r7,r0]
ldrb r9,[r4,r0]
strb r9,[r8,r0]

add r10,#1
cmp r10,#8
moveq r10,#0
addeq r5,#40
addeq r6,#40
addeq r7,#40
addeq r8,#40

add r0,#1
cmp r0,#64
bne mNormalLoop

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r12, pc}

@--------------------------- Grab flipped data

maskFlipped:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r12, lr}

ldr r5,=colMonMap
add r5,#768+16
add r6,r5,#8
add r7,r5,#384
add r8,r7,#8

@ r1,r2,r3,r4 = 4 seqments of original sprite image
@ r5,r6,r7,r8 = 4 segments to store to
mov r0,#0 @ counter (0-63)

mov r10,#7 @ byte counter (7-0)
mFlipLoop:

ldrb r9,[r1,r0] @ need to read backwards?
strb r9,[r6,r10]
ldrb r9,[r2,r0]
strb r9,[r5,r10]
ldrb r9,[r3,r0]
strb r9,[r8,r10]
ldrb r9,[r4,r0]
strb r9,[r7,r10]

subs r10,#1
movmi r10,#7
addmi r5,#48
addmi r6,#48
addmi r7,#48
addmi r8,#48

add r0,#1
cmp r0,#64
bne mFlipLoop


ldmfd sp!, {r0-r12, pc}

@--------------------------
displaySpriteMap:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r10, lr}

ldr r0,=colMonMap
add r0,#768+16
mov r11,#0 @ x
mov r8,#0 @ y
mov r9,#1 @ digits
mov r7,#0 @ which display

mov r1,#0 @ counter (0-256)
dsmLoop:

ldrb r10,[r0,r1]

bl drawDigits

add r11,#1
cmp r11,#16
moveq r11,#0
addeq r8,#1
addeq r0,#32

add r1,#1
cmp r1,#256

bne dsmLoop

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r10, pc}

@--------------------------- check Normal

pixelCheckNormal:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r11, lr}

@ r0,r1 = position to start in the colMonData, convert to location
@ y*48+x

mov r2,#48
mul r1,r2 @ mul Y by 48
add r1,r0 @ add x
ldr r2,=colMonMap
add r1,r2 @ r1=colmap top left pixel
add r2,r1,#8 @ r2=colmap top right
add r3,r1,#384 @ r3=colmap bot left
add r4,r3,#8 @ r4=colmap bot right

ldr r11,=spriteObj+128
ldr r11,[r11] @ r11= object of sprite
ldr r5,=SPRITE_GFX_SUB
lsl r11,#8 @ image * 256
add r5,r11 @ r5 should = pointer to image (8*8 tl)
add r6,r5,#64 @ r6 = 8*8 tr
add r7,r6,#64 @ r7 = 8*8 bl
add r8,r7,#64 @ r8 = 8*8 br

@ ok, we need to loop through colmap and read the value if the players is not 0

mov r9,#0 @ counter 0-63
mov r10,#0 @ pixel counter 0-7

pCheckNLoop:

ldrb r11,[r5,r9] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckN1 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r1,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckNormalHit
pCheckN1:

ldrb r11,[r6,r9] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckN2 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r2,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckNormalHit
pCheckN2:

ldrb r11,[r7,r9] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckN3 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r3,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckNormalHit
pCheckN3:

ldrb r11,[r8,r9] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckN4 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r4,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckNormalHit
pCheckN4:

add r10,#1
cmp r10,#8
moveq r10,#0
addeq r1,#40
addeq r2,#40
addeq r3,#40
addeq r4,#40

add r9,#1
cmp r9,#64
bne pCheckNLoop

mov r12,#0

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r11, pc}

pixelCheckNormalHit:

mov r12,#1

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r11, pc}

@--------------------------- check Flipped

pixelCheckFlipped:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r11, lr}
@ r0,r1 = position to start in the colMonData, convert to location
@ y*48+x

mov r2,#48
mul r1,r2 @ mul Y by 48
add r1,r0 @ add x
ldr r2,=colMonMap
add r1,r2 @ r1=colmap top left pixel
add r2,r1,#8 @ r2=colmap top right
add r3,r1,#384 @ r3=colmap bot left
add r4,r3,#8 @ r4=colmap bot right

ldr r11,=spriteObj+128
ldr r11,[r11] @ r11= object of sprite
ldr r5,=SPRITE_GFX_SUB
lsl r11,#8 @ image * 256
add r5,r11 @ r5 should = pointer to image (8*8 tl)
add r6,r5,#64 @ r6 = 8*8 tr
add r7,r6,#64 @ r7 = 8*8 bl
add r8,r7,#64 @ r8 = 8*8 br

@ ok, we need to loop through colmap and read the value if the players is not 0

mov r9,#0 @ counter 0-63
mov r10,#7 @ pixel counter 0-7

pCheckFLoop:

ldrb r11,[r6,r10] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckF1 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r1,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckFlippedHit
pCheckF1:

ldrb r11,[r5,r10] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckF2 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r2,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckFlippedHit
pCheckF2:

ldrb r11,[r8,r10] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckF3 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r3,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckFlippedHit
pCheckF3:

ldrb r11,[r7,r10] @ sprite top left 8*8
cmp r11,#0
beq pCheckN4 @ skip if set
ldrb r11,[r4,r9]
cmp r11,#0
bne pixelCheckFlippedHit
pCheckF4:

subs r10,#1
movmi r10,#7
addmi r1,#40
addmi r2,#40
addmi r3,#40
addmi r4,#40
addmi r5,#8
addmi r6,#8
addmi r7,#8
addmi r8,#8                                        
add r9,#1
cmp r9,#64
bne pCheckFLoop

mov r12,#0

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r11, pc}

pixelCheckFlippedHit:

mov r12,#1

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r11, pc}

@--------------------------

.pool
.align
colMonMap:
.space 2304
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on August 30, 2009, 09:18:21 PM
Sokky: Just reallised how easy this would be to turn into Horace... <snigger> (I wouldn't)

I will comment with this only;
(http://www.gibbs12.com/yepyep/images/april/bad-kids-spank.jpg)
:D

Btw, the screenshot from Stigma I showed you the other day was from it running on a PC - I haven't received the iPhone yet. It may be months before I get it as my provider has trouble getting them. :(
Still, at least I'm not (too) distracted by it then. :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 30, 2009, 09:23:25 PM
Loved the look of it mate..

Was gonna ring you, but had a bit too much wine to celebrate the detection LOL

(If you have anything to send to me - would love to see it?)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on August 30, 2009, 09:37:57 PM
Of course, you'll be the first to know.

And I meant what I said the other day - it's your game and I don't want you to think I'm "reserving the right to remake all your games for myself" :D so while I'm having fun playing around with it I'd stop if you wanted me to. Damn, now I feel bad about that d*mn Horace game again. I need a kick in the butt. *sigh*

Anyway, what can I say - I'm from the Speccy camp so I love the monochrome look too, but I would modernize the graphics before thinking of releasing it.

Not much to show since that picture btw. Figured out the location of the exit and it now appears when all the orbs are collected. I've also worked a bit on the "level browser" that will give you a nice overview of the levels you've already beaten and allow you to load any of them if you want to play them again. I've also had an idea of how to control it but haven't coded it in yet (it's just using the arrowkeys right now but obviously that's no good for when it ends up on the iPhone.

I've only played about 10 levels on the original game so there's a lot of tiles I don't know who do and how they affect the player yet. It's far from finished (hey, perhaps I can tradmark that aspect as my slogan. :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on August 30, 2009, 09:45:55 PM
Only 10 levels, ha ha, there are a few things to see yet - you know me by now LOL

I am just proud that you find my games playable after all this time...

I do have a couple of other games that were coded on the psion (1 unreleased) that would still make good conversions. One is a golf game, called 'Nasty Golf'. This is something that me and HK may well play with as yet.

Who knows?

Horace? What was that? LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 03, 2009, 07:22:23 PM
All music I create for this game would now been own xm, due I also change all instruments at once. Only if you want to create a jingle for each theme sharing instruments I would do that. There is some issues about level skipping the music might goo off or only plays some channels for some reason (did the music killed first?)

By now there is a space, light and dark versions of the very same song (just using deficient patches).

I also have send some feedback to Flash, about issues. The witch level, the top witch was painfull to avoid due timing and waiting required, but and after he moving the witch a little bit to right as start position, it help for me (elsewise the level was freaking hard and dying a lots). The dark tune actually works good on that level there. I hope this type of changes is actuelly ok for others as well. I want a great playable miner game.

Another thing, even some original (lost?) levels I doesn't like to die without first have moved miner, so you have a change to checkout level.  Hate to dying without reason and lost a life or 2 (even it did that on original level I heard, it a bit of design flaw I think), elsewise it its a very great level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 03, 2009, 07:40:28 PM
The music that SF has done so far is GREAT!!! ;) Every level will not have a different tune, but a themed tune..

With regards to the levels. The first was too hard. This has been changed and I can explain why it was so hard. The Oric version of the game (on which the first level is based) used a different jump mechanic. In this version, when willy hit his head he fell at a slight angle in the direction he fell from. So, I have slightly modified the level to use the original mechanic.. is this best or should I implement the same fall code as the oric one and use it only on the oric levels? This is tricky as it makes it a bit of a mish-mash of game play.

I think slight modifications to levels to keep it the same throughout is perhaps best?

SF: the audio issue when skipping levels is me not flushing (ask the wife LOL) this will all be cleaned up when I add proper level completion.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 03, 2009, 08:01:49 PM
I doesn't like different jump mechanic on same game, and this might been why the level was a bit harder than its originally was think. Of course it should been close as possible to the original, but sometimes, you need a little mod or two, so it would been playable on this version too. Playable is for me the most important thing.

I even in Cave Heroes changed some minor things, like the HUD (due looked awul in some PC resolutions) and more important the H.E.R.O dosen't stop on a "tile" like on the original etc (was no reason to do that)...

Any plans to do original levels as well (like the 15 levels I did for Cave Heroes)?

I also really like the document on the bottom screen used as a little history.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 03, 2009, 08:15:20 PM
Not sure about doing the originals?

The original level 1 is in there (level 21 and I can soon add it back in for fun)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 03, 2009, 08:32:35 PM
I mean create original levels by your self and not just recreate some of the less known levels.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 03, 2009, 08:39:39 PM
Ah, create new levels?

Hmm....

I doubt it? Perhaps I will have a rethink when the 20 are done?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 03, 2009, 10:04:18 PM
Okay, had a play on the latest version.

First thought was WOW!! - Lobo has really outdone himself with it. Beaut-ti-ful!
...almost too detailed though. Still, I'll point to this when I'm shooting an email with the word 'Horace' in the subject line off to him. ;)

Something is a bit off with the jumping. Most of the time it feels fine but sometimes it's like Willy isn't juming far enough. A very good example is the jump from the platform and up to the left, in the lower right hand side of screen 1. He is really struggling with that one block jump.

Screen 1 looks fantastic but is insanely hard. Took me a really long time to get past it.
Screen 2 is great. Plays really good. Pretty easy, as an early level should be.
Screen 3: see above.
Screen 4: This was the one with all the leaves blowing, right?...first thought was "Aargh...whu...whaa..." - SO much going on...and dead in 1½ second flat. Seems fun but only tried a few times. Bed time y'know. Is there a way of skipping levels and going directly to another level?

Really nice. (http://tardis.dk/images/smilie_thumbsup.gif)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 03, 2009, 10:19:19 PM
Thanks for the comments mate,

You can skip to the next level with the R trigger.

Not sure what you mean aboult the jumping? If you skip levels, you can play the first original spectrum level. I used this to check the jumps (and have also compaired height and distance with the oric version). On spec level 1 at then end of the conveyor, you should only just be able to reach the upper of the two platforms on the left. Hmmm... I am a bit confused? You will have to explain more with pictures and diagrams and stuff with arrows and algebra.. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 04, 2009, 04:26:46 AM
I did have sometimes problems with that too. For me more problem was also the top witch. I would like you got the music flushed when you add more more levels.

Please note I have have a newer demo now with new levels and music came in.

Screen 1 got easier now after he moved the top witch to the rigth, since it was pretty hard for me too. Now I have no problems with that level. Yes graphics is neat here.
Screen 2 space music work much nicer now and have very much action music when drums starting :-D... and still only 6 channels used.
Screen 4 got fixed that problem now wouth the 1½ second dead. This was in the original too, but even HE diddent like that dead ever and changed it.

Need to test the new levels (glad you moved them after the first fore level, due whe have various demos) when I got home.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 04, 2009, 07:38:19 AM
Can I join the betatest efforts? :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 04, 2009, 10:52:58 AM
Not sure what you mean aboult the jumping? If you skip levels, you can play the first original spectrum level. I used this to check the jumps (and have also compaired height and distance with the oric version). On spec level 1 at then end of the conveyor, you should only just be able to reach the upper of the two platforms on the left. Hmmm... I am a bit confused? You will have to explain more with pictures and diagrams and stuff with arrows and algebra.. ;)

Okay, because I'm at work and don't have the latest version here I've just grabbed an earlier screenshot and used that.
It's got the reason I love algebra (which is completely unrelated to the rest, except you wanted it :)), it's got an arrow and I've even gone all the way and added a circle around the problematic place.

Like I said - most of the time jumping is fine but this particular spot is troublesome and I constantly fail to make that tiny jump, so something must be a little off somewhere...or is it just me?  :-[

(http://tardis.dk/images/2009/mmll.png)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 04, 2009, 05:03:52 PM
It is a lovely picture mate :)

But.. I jumped on and off there so many times that I sprained my ankle and spilt me Tea...

Are you playing the latest version? I think there may have been a colmap issue in an earlier beta?

ps. there is a solid wall above you, so, if you jump left and hit your head, you will fall directly down (as in the original), is that what you mean?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 04, 2009, 05:37:40 PM
Can I join the betatest efforts? :)

Yes, that would be a help..

I will see if I can get a demo sorted and out to you soon mate.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 04, 2009, 10:31:43 PM
For me it was never here I got any problem at all and could not dying every by falling.... I got many demos past 2-3 days, due trying out music and then hear how it works in game (how do I compile my self?). For me it was the top witch which was the main problem.

The miner8.xm I guess might been removed, because I really does not like the organs, and is instead transfer this music to been a Egyptian theme using some of the same instruments (and also save about 80kb). I do guess Dark (which should that named?) and Space.xm works very well now.

All music is now own XM'S. About the complete jingles, what about doing one for each theme and sharing instruments? If not possibile I do one for all.

PS. These that got the demo tonight, the Egyptian music is still early and buggy (the flute did not fade down as it should due a unsupported feature I was not aware of, but is just fixed and sent to Flash).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 06, 2009, 09:51:10 AM
Are you playing the latest version? I think there may have been a colmap issue in an earlier beta?

ps. there is a solid wall above you, so, if you jump left and hit your head, you will fall directly down (as in the original), is that what you mean?

A solid wall? -that might be it. I have to play the previous version a little more...or even better - play the version you sent ...yesterday I think it was.


Hmmm... I am a bit confused? You will have to explain more with pictures and diagrams and stuff with arrows and algebra.. ;)

You are Cat and I claim my five pounds.  :D
(http://tardis.dk/images/2009/RedDwarf.jpg)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 06, 2009, 09:56:08 AM
I have a feeling you really should lay off that Stout...

LOL  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 06, 2009, 10:05:32 AM
That's envy that is. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 06, 2009, 12:26:00 PM
All newest XM including a piano tune (a piece used in C64 China Miner) sent to Flash as long with 2 fixed instruments in 2 xm's in hope to bring less noisy and clicks.

now there is 4 tunes finished or near finished (they are are least useable now):
Dark, Egyptian, Rag and a Space Theme.

The first tune I created (that use 280kb = too much) should not been used in the final, but fine as placeholders.

Plans to do a jungle tune only using drums and percussions....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 06, 2009, 01:28:34 PM
Like the piano one mate, but for some reason it is louder than the others? Perhaps the piano sound it set high?

Could this have a little percussion? (jazz it up a bit?)

Will send you a demo soon mate.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 06, 2009, 02:28:39 PM
I guess this is due the samples is very "compressed" hience the volume is high. I have now exported these samples, turned the volume down about 8db and in finally converted them to 22khz (they was 44khz).

I really not want to use more than 6 channels which is used for all piano, and sometimes leave one channels. I might do that in this chase, but not sure.

Its was a good midi file to convert, but it was some work on it as well to been playable and trimmed in XM.

A another fun version of the same tune can been found of Amiga version of Frantic Freddie which have lots of chip sounds on it.

I mail sent to you with the new version.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 07, 2009, 03:42:55 AM
Music is pretty cool, like the piano in 'back to work', almost like western saloon kinda thing.  8)
One thing I wanted to mention about MM and TDG diary, they should both have the shortucts in the 'menu' on the front page where Warhawk is as well so for lazy bums like me to get there faster and spam more efficiently?

How's everybody doing with actual levels? So far I got it like this~

-Home at last - finished only once

-The Airlock - easiest so far for me, can finish anytime

-Mummy, Daddy - finished a few times, tricky but possible

-Hall of the mountain Flash - well, seems easy to me and I got the apple No.2 below the Kong but still not finished.
I think this level definitely needs LESS leaves as it's screwing up my view majorly.

-Back to work - can't finish no frickin way! I just can't get to conveyor belt no matter where I jump from, always hit the bloody ceiling and fall straight down. TIPS??

-The dragon users - not yet finished but seems doable, patience!

-Not central cavern - Well...almost, get screwed on conv. belt after picking up the top keys.

-Down the pit - nono..not yet, actually if you jump as soon as the level starts, you can walk on the top area (bug?)

-The central cavern -TaDaaa-finished! Once but still.

So, how are the others doing? Am I the worst player here? Is the world really flat, sitting on the back of a giant turtle? What gives?



Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 07, 2009, 05:53:16 AM
I got completed first 5 levels and playing rest when I got home.

Home at last was hard earlier, but for me easy now after moving the top witch (thanks).

Mummy Daddy was for me really easy.

The Airlock can been very tricky to the top key, but easy when found out how to due (I should found that up by my self and not tip from Flash).

The top bird in back to work have same problem. You need to wait a QUITE long time to the left. It have a bad start position. Jump to conveyor is tricky, but possible (this one took me some tries too).

I also agree with Loby with Hall of the mountain Flash as I also wrote by email: Too many leaves falling.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 07, 2009, 06:35:12 AM
-Down the pit - nono..not yet, actually if you jump as soon as the level starts, you can walk on the top area (bug?)

Er, no... um.....'special feature'?

LOL

I will fix... It is just because you start falling and it relies on the fall to be signaled when no floor is found, this means, if you are quick, the status can be changed to 'jump'.

I will have a play through the levels and check them, it is also rather hard when you are recreating original ip and want to stay the same. I did say at the start that perhaps a few mods will be needed to balance the gameplay. I still find the first bloody level the harded. Also, I am following the level (and story) laid out by Retrogamers Stu. So, I do want to keep to that.. Though after the 20 levels, perhaps A couple of 'team' levels may be nice? Who knows..

Also, I still have the other contol mechanic to add (perhaps) that gives Willy sonic type controls (just for fun and to give the levels replay value).. I will think about that.. ;)

Quote
-Back to work - can't finish no frickin way! I just can't get to conveyor belt no matter where I jump from, always hit the bloody ceiling and fall straight down. TIPS??
Just get a little higher up the trellis, but not too high (else you hit your head), about the 5th block down and jump right
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 07, 2009, 06:41:06 AM
The top bird in back to work have same problem. You need to wait a QUITE long time to the left. It have a bad start position. Jump to conveyor is tricky, but possible (this one took me some tries too).
That top bird does need moving, I agree... But, again, it is how it is in the original - I will play so that if you do the rest quickly you won't have to wait.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 07, 2009, 09:47:36 AM
Down the pit - haha, fun bug. background seen bit unfinished to the right, but I just guess it just unfinished and only designed the level.

The bird should NOT been move faster, but yes is more the start position like the top witch.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 07, 2009, 04:57:06 PM
Bugger,

Just spent 2 hours trying to crack the Archimedes version of MM so I can play level 22..... Looks like I will have to play them all to get there :(

Oh dear!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 07, 2009, 06:02:47 PM
Er, no... um.....'special feature'?

LOL

I like it actually :D. That stairs thing worked, pheew, jumped on the CB but now I can't avoid the bird, haha.
Ah, well...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 07, 2009, 10:33:14 PM
I really should post a demo or screenshots...Lobo has been doing such wonderful work, I really want to show it...

All I want to do is get the game to a stage where lives work and 'return to title works'...

Hmm...

Also keen to get a post on RR!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 07, 2009, 10:41:02 PM
Post it all baby, spammerize the machines batman, oil up the old gears of advertising factory and full steam ahead!

Actually, everyone saw screens already, I mean everyone on this board is a tester so that much is covered.
Now, for that 'bird situation' I'm having here...do I wait until the bird is halfway to the right over CB and then jump on it..or what's the secret here?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 01:29:16 AM
You still having problems with Back to work? Tsch!

I will have a look at the initial placements of enemies and the such today, All going well!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 08, 2009, 05:20:13 AM
Post it all baby, spammerize the machines batman, oil up the old gears of advertising factory and full steam ahead!

Actually, everyone saw screens already, I mean everyone on this board is a tester so that much is covered.
Now, for that 'bird situation' I'm having here...do I wait until the bird is halfway to the right over CB and then jump on it..or what's the secret here?

yes you have wait for the burd to been moved very much to the right, it take a quite a time. but for me it was actuelly easy, but a bit boring.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 06:05:30 AM
Bloody bird, I know I have to wait..grrr....
Anyhoo, just dropped here for a minute while watching Back to the Future II...can we have a Delorean in this game? :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 06:18:07 AM
I see no reason why not.... LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: BaDToaD on September 08, 2009, 09:30:38 AM
I am loving this at the moment. Talk about nostalgic. I haven't beaten home at last yet, LOL but have done a few of the levels after. I agree with Lobo the airlock is easy... I was beginning to think I was useless hehe.

Great work guys. The whole thing gels so nicely...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 05:40:01 PM

Great work guys. The whole thing gels so nicely...

It's gellin' like a Magellan! Ohhh..crap!   :D

Anyhoo, it is going swell, especially if the aforementioned car appears somewhere in there that dam game.  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 05:44:11 PM
LOL...

We need the car!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 05:46:00 PM
Well, save one level for some action circa 1985 (or 1955).
Also, I have a little surprise level I'm working on, HoHohoHohoHohoHo...hope it will work, can't say no more!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 05:53:34 PM
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH,

I LOVE suprises!!!!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 06:00:14 PM
Haha, yes..I see this one person being like 'WTF..WT...W...is this all about?? Noooooo!' . Shall be glorious!

Also, forgot to say this before but when you change into a spacesuit in Airlock map-that is my favorite moment! :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 07:26:35 PM
Perhaps I should post some pics...

There may be someone else looking?

;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 07:26:59 PM
oh, should i?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 07:28:25 PM
Hehe...not yet, first send the test to the 'guy', then post whatever you want, hehehe....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 09:06:12 PM
Ok, it is about time I post something!


I could not hold back any longer, sod the game, but I really had to display the graphics that Lobo has imbued the game with, So, here are some screens for the title sequence. These levels are all fully playable and at the moment we have 11 complete levels.
Sadly, the static pictures cannot demonstrate SpaceFractals wonderful remixes.. But.. A demo will be released soon and also I will do one of my little youtube videos at some point.


(http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title01.png)  (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title02.png)  (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title03.png)

(http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title04.png)  (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title05.png)  (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title06.png)

(http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title07.png)  (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title08.png)  (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Title09.png)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 08, 2009, 09:20:23 PM
Damn that is looking sexy, great work guys!!  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 09:25:55 PM
Blast it, it does look cool when you put it like that all together. All I see most of the time is muzzle stuff across the wallpaper of magenta  :D.
Hehe..also, look where is Willy standing in 'down the pit'.  ;D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 08, 2009, 09:28:10 PM
Looking good. Just think - Horace could look that good too...I just need to find someone who will code it for me first. :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 09:30:18 PM
Looking good. Just think - Horace could look that good too...I just need to find someone who will code it for me first. :D

fnaeilfueafnml...I wanna say...I'll wait about half an hour or so but I'm almost e...

I meant to say, don't go anywhere soks.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 09:36:48 PM
fnaeilfueafnml...I wanna say...I'll wait about half an hour or so but I'm almost e...

I meant to say, don't go anywhere soks.
<smirkle> <guffaw> <funnock>
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 09:39:30 PM
<smirkle> <guffaw> <funnock>

grumpff.f.fd  eyetwitch..grumofdf...mgmgmff
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 09:41:03 PM
<yaffaw> <smidgle> <crannocksquirm>
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 08, 2009, 09:41:22 PM
Nahh, I'm not going anywhere. I'm seriously looking forward to getting good and thoroughly into Horace (oh, err..) so don't worry. Just need to make a real pig of myself first. :p
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 09:43:19 PM
exxxcccllent..excc./..caaan't  hoold  onnn  mucch loooongerrr!!!
Flash, heeelp!  :D  <\gngmgkkssusgnn>
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 09:44:44 PM
exxxcccllent..excc./..caaan't  hoold  onnn  mucch loooongerrr!!!
Flash, heeelp!  :D  <\gngmgkkssusgnn>

Contain yourself!!!! LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 09:47:45 PM
 :D :D harrrdlly....damn fukin bios... :D :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 08, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
exxxcccllent..excc./..caaan't  hoold  onnn  mucch loooongerrr!!!
Flash, heeelp!  :D  <\gngmgkkssusgnn>

Great...because I work really well under pressure. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 09:54:21 PM
Yep, as you should! That's where we Men separate from Gorgons! We work under pressure-period!  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 10:05:28 PM
Yep, as you should! That's where we Men separate from Gorgons! We work under pressure-period!  8)
What is a pressure-period? Is that a really heavy full stop?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 10:07:45 PM
Nono. heavyfullstop doesn't have a period-period!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 10:09:16 PM
Well... it is all to confusing for me!! LOL

Did i post some screenshots about 8 pages back?  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 10:11:01 PM
Screenshots about Gorgons? I never saw any to be honest.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 08, 2009, 10:33:04 PM
A couple a random thoughts.

Love the dust at Willy's feet when he takes an item.
Love the spacesuit on the Airlock.
Love love love the egyptian theme on Mummy Daddy.
For some reason Dragon Users Bonus really gave me that ol' feeling of nostalgia.
I got a bit confused on 'not the central cavern' as the exit doesn't start to blink - no matter how the switch is set. What to do?
Didn't have enough patience to do down the pit. It seems a bit hard. must try again later.
Love the flies on Metropolis Bingo. :)
LOL LOOL LLLOOOOLLL - at the one which you perfectly which one. :D Solurahlapse my ass. :D :D
...damn hard though - it's the one I've had the most retries at and then it doesn't end. Grr...just my development. ;)



Overall it looks and feels great. The only thing I can say, if I have to say anything, is that sometimes Willy could do with a bit more contrast to stand more out from the background.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 08, 2009, 10:35:24 PM
What is a pressure-period? Is that a really heavy full stop?

No, a pressure-period is what happens when a dot grows up to become a period and is in the process of being used the first time.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 08, 2009, 10:42:40 PM
LOL LOOL LLLOOOOLLL - at the one which you perfectly which one. :D Solurahlapse my ass. :D :D
...damn hard though - it's the one I've had the most retries at and then it doesn't end. Grr...just my development. ;)

HO HO HO HO HO HO

I'm not laughing - Lobo made me do it.... it was him... Blame him...er... Damn you Lobo...

See?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 10:46:57 PM
Finally! HAHAHA! Awesome man. Flash and I have been giggling like high school cheerleaders on prozac for the good part of the day. Ah..super.

Now, this level is also done to encourage you to meditate over the Horace remake as well so it's not just a stupid prank from two retards, you know.
Well played, I almost thought we lost you there  :D.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 08, 2009, 10:53:51 PM
Finally! HAHAHA! Awesome man. Flash and I have been giggling like high school cheerleaders on prozac for the good part of the day. Ah..super.

Do you put out? :D

For what it's worth I've been programming a bit tonight -I'm slowly getting into it again.

...and THANK YOU for making a smile. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 08, 2009, 10:58:08 PM
Do you put out? :D

Nono, only if you have a Delorean, maybe...or at least a skateboard!
But ye, was fun big time and excitement was so high that I think Flash has managed to impregnate someone or something (Gorgon?).
Also, it's always nice to make people laugh and urinate in public while doing so.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 09, 2009, 03:54:26 AM
Found an interesting inverview with the original author of Manic Miner

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 09, 2009, 05:30:23 AM
Guys, I just can say 'wow!'. It's already really cool, even unfinished. Backgrounds are amazing and the remixes gives that extra that fits perfectly :)

I've got some questions... how did you do the rain/lightning effect? I guess lightning is done via the color special effect registers (brightness increase/decrease effects) but all that skipping some scanlines on the top of the screen... or is it just a manipulation of a subset of the palette(s)? And about the rain... are the drops sprites too? And how could you manage to make them fall agains the background, have you got a colmap for that too?  ???

Again, you are amazing me more and more. I wish I could code something at least half good as this... but I've just got to concentrate more on learning ;)

Bye!

edit: oh, right, I forgot to mention... I still couldn't finish ANY level... but it's me, I'm not that great player  :(



Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 05:35:00 AM
Its wrote in Assembly :-D

Pacman ghosts in one of the levels? mightbeen a little pacman tune tribute?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 09, 2009, 05:58:36 AM
Its wrote in Assembly :-D

 :D lol ...  :D ... I'm currently learning ARM asm, it's very different from the asm I'm (was) used to (x86) back in the days ;) Btw I think I'll use asm only as a last resort when it's really necessary to squeeze up to the last CPU cycle (for example IF I'll ever code a software audio mixing routines... which probably I won't do...)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 06:20:11 AM
Found an interesting inverview with the original author of Manic Miner

Holy crap! We oughta call this dude, he's...one of us! ???
Now..back to the movie.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 06:28:44 AM
:D lol ...  :D ... I'm currently learning ARM asm, it's very different from the asm I'm (was) used to (x86) back in the days ;) Btw I think I'll use asm only as a last resort when it's really necessary to squeeze up to the last CPU cycle (for example IF I'll ever code a software audio mixing routines... which probably I won't do...)

ARM asm is a beautiful language and pretty easy to code in if you have knowledge of 6502.. It is very similar. The main differences are the loss of the INC instruction, and that addition of tons of multifunction registers.
Saying that, it is not important to code in ASM now days. C compilers have come on so well that they do come close to the speed of ASM, and with the speed of processors, it is not such an issue.

All the effects in the game use sprites (well, we do have 120 free!), and we uses BG's dilligently to enable sprites and effects to be split horizontally. We wrote a great sprite drawing routine in Warhawk that has been reused. This handles the drawing of the sprites and automatic animation. So, All you have to do is assign a sprite and the code does the rest. It makes it easier than directly working with registers.

Sverx, good luck with learning ARM. Even if you never use it (as HK will testify) there are a lot of benefits to knowing how code is constructed at core level that could even help with speed intensive C code. It is a (ancient) format that all coders should have knowledge of.

Now, I should really be devoting more time to learning C.. I am just enjoying MMLL a bit too much... which is a bit naughty!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 06:30:42 AM
Holy crap! We oughta call this dude, he's...one of us! ???
Now..back to the movie.
I wish I knew how to find the man!!

It would be great to let him see this...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 06:48:38 AM
Just realised that perhaps some people may wonder what all the guffaws and sniggers between Lobo and myself was a page or two back...

Well, Sokurah has been working on a remake of 'Horace in the Mystic Woods' that I wrote quite a while back, (details of the Psion game HERE (http://greatflash.co.uk/index.php?topic=130.0)) and it was started a while ago.. So, (and pass the blame here) Lobo sent graphics to make the first level appear in MMLL.

But we found it so hard to contain ourselves as we waited for Sokurah to play the latest demo... Oh the joy!!!

It sounds a bit silly now... well... you had to have been there really LOL

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 09, 2009, 07:29:45 AM
ARM asm is a beautiful language and pretty easy to code in if you have knowledge of 6502.. It is very similar. The main differences are the loss of the INC instruction, and that addition of tons of multifunction registers.

Well, I wrote my first program on a Commodore 64, but it was in BASIC and I was 11... so no 6502 asm knowledge, unfortunately. Then, in 1989, I bought an 8088 and I was coding on that platform only until two years ago when I discovered it was possible to write programs for the DS. I fell in love with that immediately, and I learnt a lot since then, but it's still a steep curve for me.

[...]and we uses BG's dilligently to enable sprites and effects to be split horizontally.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean with that sentence  ???

Sverx, good luck with learning ARM. Even if you never use it (as HK will testify) there are a lot of benefits to knowing how code is constructed at core level that could even help with speed intensive C code.

Yes, that actually was the first reason why I started peeking in that :)

Thanks for your time! :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 07:49:03 AM
Sorry, I don't get what you mean with that sentence  ???

Well, we use backgrounds as masks to cover up parts that we don't want affected. ie. the rain is behind bg0 and bg1 (the status at the top)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 09, 2009, 07:55:52 AM
Well, we use backgrounds as masks to cover up parts that we don't want affected. ie. the rain is behind bg0 and bg1 (the status at the top)

Ah, ok, I noticed that. I was curious about the fact that the rain drops do hit the background (floors, platforms, roofs... so they aren't simply 'passing' there, in front of the player, like the leaves in the other level...). How did you do that? Another colmap? And lightning flash is done with color special effect registers manipulation or you're changing a part of the background and sprite palette? Curiosity, mainly... but it's because that lightning is really effective!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 08:12:03 AM
The lightning is a blend on bg2, bg3, and sprites (sub). We leave bg0 and 1 alone as this saves us having to use interupts to horizontally seperate the top status from the play areas.

All the sprites (leaves, drips, rain etc) use the same colmap that the player uses. So, they check this rather than the tiles and act acordingly. Dropping the bottom 3 bits on the Y coords helps to align them to the platforms.

The hardest bit for me so far was the pixel based sprite detection, the code is posted a few pages back. This was ..er.. fun!! :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 09, 2009, 08:40:16 AM
The lightning is a blend on bg2, bg3, and sprites (sub). We leave bg0 and 1 alone as this saves us having to use interupts to horizontally seperate the top status from the play areas.

Wow, that's a good idea. Btw I'm surprised it's working because I wouldn't expect to get to full white just blending two backgrounds, even if you're 'summing' them up 16/16 + 16/16 ... after all black+black=black, uh?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 08:49:40 AM
Sorry, I did not explain that very well did i?

Here is the code snippet. What I was trying to illustrate was that we just used the remaining bg's to mask the effect where needed.
Code: [Select]
cmp r0,#0
subne r0,#1
str r0,[r1]

ldr r2,=SUB_BLEND_Y
str r0,[r2]
ldr r0, =SUB_BLEND_CR
ldr r1, =(BLEND_FADE_WHITE | BLEND_SRC_BG2 | BLEND_SRC_BG3 | BLEND_SRC_SPRITE)
strh r1, [r0]
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 09, 2009, 09:04:31 AM
What I was trying to illustrate was that we just used the remaining bg's to mask the effect where needed.

Oh, now it's clearer, thanks. So you're using fade to white effect, not blending BGs :) And of course you're not touching the BGs you don't want to affect :)

This BLEND_FADE_WHITE (with the other BLEND_FADE_BLACK) are two things I never found interesting and never used in my programs... but now that I've seen this lightning effect (and that darkening effect in TDG) I think I must reevaluate my point of view :o

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 09:37:24 AM
Did Horace in the Mystic Woods have music? I diddent notice it before now about the ghosts.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 10:17:29 AM
The original Psion version did not have music.. It was not very quick at audio.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 04:48:45 PM
Did Horace in the Mystic Woods have music? I diddent notice it before now about the ghosts.


Bach, Toccata and Fugue in D minor, organ, that should do  ;D.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 09, 2009, 07:15:04 PM
Holy crap! We oughta call this dude, he's...one of us! ???

I totally agree I love what he says at the end... "Everything comes around and goes around. 5 years after I did it I was a washout. 10 years after I did it I was history. But coming up to 20 years now and I'm a legend." And then pulls a crazy face. LOL What a classic!

BTW I did see the Horace level, that's really cool. Makes me wonder if Flash is thinking of remaking a Horace game for the DS now?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 07:24:10 PM
Horace for the DS.... Well... that is a nice thought... But...

After MMLL I do 'REALLY' want to work on C based code and really give this a go.. I need to learn it..

But...

Coding ASM on the iPhone, there's a dream!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 07:38:59 PM
I totally agree I love what he says at the end... "Everything comes around and goes around. 5 years after I did it I was a washout. 10 years after I did it I was history. But coming up to 20 years now and I'm a legend." And then pulls a crazy face. LOL What a classic!

BTW I did see the Horace level, that's really cool. Makes me wonder if Flash is thinking of remaking a Horace game for the DS now?

Ya, that is one cool ending of the video. As soon as I've seen that frozen picture there, before even hitting the 'play', I knew it was gonna be nutty. Seems like dude has some kinda 'condition' there, not so sure what though. Might be wrong.
Here's an idea, we finish this on DS and port it to iPhone, sell it and send  him the moneyz, something tells me he might need it.  :(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 07:47:48 PM
Bach, Toccata and Fugue in D minor, organ, that should do  ;D.

I was think on the same tune as well  ;D...... I have a midi file of it, so see I can export this correctly and use a organ sound, like that deatch music organ used in The Detective.......
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 08:10:42 PM
Yep, that would be cool. Also, Flash should tell you about it (don't wanna spoil it now) but you might be asked to write a small music for another level inspired with a nice little movie from the past century.  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 08:17:45 PM
Ghostbutters!?

LOL...

I was just thinking...

We have 20 levels of "lost levels"

Should we have another 20, "inspired by....", then we could have Back to the future, hellraiser, etc.. perhaps even add a few special 'switch' function? It all depends on how much you wanna do Lobo..? I have allocated 42 levels at the moment. The only thing is music for all this - it will take up a lot of space and I also only allocated 5bits in the level data to signal a track (for the rest of you - 32 tracks 0-31)... This could be a problem if we wanted to theme levels, and also poor SF would have a heart attack with the extra audio...

So, we could do it, but, use generic themed tunes - ie thriller, horror, comedy, etc..

Or, is 20 +1 (lobo) +1 (horace) enough?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 08:21:35 PM
... and they are still copyrighted, many of them still might have midi, but I think it gonna take very long time one for each level :.D. The church/organ music is really a cool idea.

Back to the future was named, I have some sort of unfinished mixture of Power of Love and Slug (a C64 game)....... Only started on that about a year ago, but was never finished.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 08:28:44 PM
Much as i would love to have a different mix of the music for each level, sadly, there just is not the space... around 15 or so tunes is perhaps all we can fit... I really dont know..

So, themed is best, better than a fixed level tune.. Though there can be one or 2...  Ghostbusters would be a nice one to remix.. and also use on other levels.. perhaps?

LOBO: Thought you went to the beach?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 08:34:56 PM
Heck no, I came back to make lunch so wife and kids can annoy the lifeguards over there. It is a nice day but I have some stuff to finish around the house anyway.

For the music, well, just GhostBUTTErs, Back to the Future then? The rest can have anything, even repeat some tunes?
I can do additional levels besides GB and BTTF but I'm not the best in designing the actual traps/layout so if you find some levels that can be 'skinned' or make new from the scratch then I can adopt these movie themes easily. That said, it can go beyond 20 or 22 levels, whatever the number is.

Oh and for ghostbutters (:D), don't worry about copyright stuff, spacefractal, just do your own 'homage' version of it or something.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 09, 2009, 08:36:14 PM
Love the Ghostbusters level :)

I do like the idea of a Hellraiser level too! Bring it on!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 08:40:21 PM
dont do for many movies, or it became to much of scope of MM? One or two is fine.

I think it Detective time now. Doing the ingame tune (as a another subtune).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 08:45:12 PM
dont do for many movies, or it became to much of scope of MM? One or two is fine.

I think it Detective time now. Doing the ingame tune (as a another subtune).

My idea was...

We have the 20 lost levels... and also (perhaps upon completion) open up the special secet hidden wonder themed magic super levels... These will not be accessybible from the start, but, like Warhawk... Opened upon completion, and also, a new control method... That can be used to play any level for fun....

Well.... So much time was spent on the engine, it would be nice to use it a bit more...

But.. the main thing is to get the other 20 levels done. These need to be in first so we can judge memory.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 08:48:51 PM
Yeah, 20 regular levels and maybe just 2-3 movies (GB, BTTF and Hellraiser?). Then some more of 'regular' can be added in case Flash can dig out some more lost stuff or anyone makes some from the scratch?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 09:12:22 PM
and....

Clockwork orange, Friday 13th, Rocky Horror show... OH GOD!!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 09:18:46 PM
Clockwork Orange, damn, that would be great!  :D

However, the best of all would be....







THE GOONIES!!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 09:25:32 PM
That would be

COOL

Though, Watership Down, and Tarka the Otter should not be overlooked ... .. lol

(I can smell your creative juices mate!!! :) )
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 09, 2009, 09:26:01 PM
What about 2001?...or is The Airlock enough spacetheme for one game? :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 09:28:46 PM
2001 with big black blocks as enemies and lots of pulsing lights in the background :)

Oh, I should really send you Lobo's level - hang you on a mo!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 09:31:13 PM
2001, yep, was thinking of the same thing and immediately thought of Airlock level.
However, the big black stone monument thingie is scary enough to grant the level, hmm..maybe we should have a voting time about movies.  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 09:36:47 PM
Personly I doent want tunes for each movie and the "The Lost Levels" term simply just would losts it charm, if the game going to much hollywood?

Personly I want ragtime and old classics in this game.

Howover 2001 is propenty best movie to do a level for, due the game have a space theme allready and the title tune can been reused directly when its finished......

For a unlouckable feature, could been using all classic spectrum levels, or mightbeen China Miner Levels as a feature?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 09, 2009, 09:39:36 PM
Personly I want ragtime and classics in this game.

That gives me an an idea. "CASABLANCA"...and we already have an expert in the field around. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 09:41:47 PM
I'm thinking that 'movie levels' should be the ones that are unblockable as a bonus but not too many of them. Just a few classics that's all. For the rest of the levels, after these 20 or so, it's about how much space is left and what Flash finds to include there, I guess.

Haha, LO and Behold-Casablanca, crap and what do you know I already got the gfx for it, hehe..gonna work on it tonight, thanks for the idea!  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 09:44:09 PM
spectrum graphics using original levels should not take very much memory.... Of course a unlockable feature.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 09:47:35 PM
spectrum graphics using original levels should not take very much memory.... Of course a unlockable feature.
They would not take much memory.. True..

But.. They have all been done to death on so many formats, do we need them again?

I like the idea of completing the game and getting more NEW levels as a bonus.. Even if it is just a few...

I have sent you the latest demo... This has Ghostbusters (watch his eyes LOL)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 09:51:50 PM
Yup, I don't really wanna see the levels which have been whored around numerous other remakes, better to go off with a few surprises and the rest can be done by...us, Fluffons. Flash can probably make some, maybe spacefractal and HK make some, I'll try as well (not too good tbh, see ghostbusters level :P). Alternatively, if Flash finds more 'lost' stuff, that haven't been used- all for the better then.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 09:54:45 PM
lost stuff is allways best. How do I create levels?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 10:02:44 PM
Yup, I don't really wanna see the levels which have been whored around numerous other remakes, better to go off with a few surprises and the rest can be done by...us, Fluffons. Flash can probably make some, maybe spacefractal and HK make some, I'll try as well (not too good tbh, see ghostbusters level :P). Alternatively, if Flash finds more 'lost' stuff, that haven't been used- all for the better then.
Well, there are several more levels that we have not used that were in other releases... But... I think Stu Campbell pretty much picked the better levels.

New levels would also be nice.. Even just 10 levels... (The Team-Mix)

I could make a level template that would help creation? HK would not need this, but for other non-compilers (source is on google code), I coudl add as test levels and move them to the main levels if they are good...

But... As I said, getting Stuarts 20 lost levels as perfect as possible is the main challenge and priority...

But... Hellraiser, Goonies, CasablankYer!

ps. Dom't forget a level can have a switch and this can be made to do lot's of things... (1 per room though at the mo...)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 10:10:04 PM
OH...

Gremlins
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 10:20:21 PM
OH...

Gremlins

Fukin AYE! was about to say that one, I swear!! Excellent choice, madame!

I'm kinda repeating myself here but yes, whatever unused/lost levels can anyone scavenge~we go with it. The rest is movie goodies.
Level template would be cool even though I don't need it but for SF and HK would be great if they wanna try some? The basic thing is to know how far the dude can jump, that's the only major stuff. :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 10:34:42 PM
How about a Level Editor, if the themes can handle it or using spectrum graphics?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 10:38:30 PM
ER, he can jump all the way up until he falls... LOL

No, he jumps 20 pixels (2 platforms and a bit = 16+4) but, the distance and arc are the tricky bits. I can;t remember at the moment how it fits into the parabolic curve, but the distance is 36 pixels.. Ie. 4 blocks and 4 pixels (though the original was 34 pixels i believe?) platform to platform on the same height. The jump curve is perhaps best plotted on a graph.. just because a descending jump can colide with a platfrom, and that distance is different depending on the part of the jump involved..

Has it all got a bit complicated?  ;D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 09, 2009, 10:39:38 PM
How about a Level Editor, if the themes can handle it or using spectrum graphics?

Any spectrum level editor will do.. A picture of the level is all that is needed - there are a few of them already
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 09, 2009, 10:41:29 PM
Which Editor? A color png read by the game (like that way I did for Cave Hereos) or such a txt external file would work too.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 09, 2009, 10:49:15 PM
Here is a quick example-8x8 grid, he jumps up 16px the most in order to reach the platform (right, Flash?). That would mean that you have to position the platform you want Willy to reach at this distance.
Also, the level size is actually 256x152, this image is double that. Helps?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 10, 2009, 02:37:09 AM
Olly Crap, just watchin' me olde Hellraiser here after so many years, still kickin' sharp! Who gonna design that level, huh?
 :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 10, 2009, 06:07:24 AM
You forgot Young Frankenstein ;)  [But why not making an 'Hollywood release' later, in a MMHL Holliwood Level instead of fitting all that into this MMLL ?]

Anyway, I finally succeeded in completing 1 level ;) But there is at least one bug in the version I'm betatesting: when you enter a level for the first time there are more apples (or jewels or whatever) than what would appear when you restart it. And in the mummy level sometimes one jewel is missing when you restart.

Then a little suggestion... what about adding a thunder sfx (synced with the end of the lightning effect) to the 'rain' level? Two different samples and playing them at a different volume each time (but quite low) would enhance the background effect... (also rain sfx would be cool, but that's a bit more complicated as it should be looping...)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 10, 2009, 06:11:56 AM
I will add a few sound effects at some point, thunder, key collection, switches, etc.

I will look into the little bugs soon, just been spending so much time adding the levels.. LOL

The jump is 20 pix, enough to clear 2 platforms and stick his head into the next space so a enemy above can still be collided with.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 10, 2009, 07:23:05 AM
Instead of one movie in one level, how about using elements from more movies at same time, and using some sort of ragtime (The Entertianer mightbeen)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 10, 2009, 09:22:32 AM
Me and Flash have been going a bit wacky trying to track down this music issue were having with libxm7. At first I thought it was some bug in either my implementation of it or in Flash's init code. I've spent quite a bit of time fiddling around and can't seem to fix it.

So what I did was download the xm7 demo and modify the C++ example so that everytime you press the "A" button it would unload and reload the XM. This is basically what is happening in MMLL every time it loads a new level and after a few level skips the music stops working or gets corrupted.

Okay so do this around 130 times with the attached demo (in No$GBA) and you will start to hear the music corrupting and not restarting correctly. I think it demonstrates some sort of memory leak in the library. Sverx if you could take a look at this that would be great :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 10, 2009, 09:52:49 AM
Cheking it... I wonder what that could be  ???

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 10, 2009, 10:10:21 AM
or if skale export the xm wrong? I have heard about it, or used a other xm and see it does the same? Then I think I need to load in modplug tracker and save here again.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 10, 2009, 11:01:40 AM
No, I don't think it's a problem involving that specific XM or the program you're using to make it. I'm running some tests, loading/unloading functions aren't involved, the problem still appears even if you do not load/unload the tune each time, so I guess it's not a memory leak.
I'm starting to think it's a libnds fifoSendValue32() problem, going to investigate deeper on this now...
No$gba gives the first error always after the 127th start... quite curious, uh?

See ya later.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 10, 2009, 11:15:18 AM
Yes it does seem strange although we arn't using FIFO in MMLL were using IPC. I guess the first question with FIFO is, does the ARM7 receive the message and return immediately or is there a delay between sending the message and the ARM7 receiving it? If so that could mean it's unloading before the ARM7 has a chance to stop the XM. That being said part of my experiments in asm were to add some swiWaitForVBlank calls between sending messages using IPC. But I did have the ARM7 reading IPC memory during a VBlank interrupt so needing a wait is more necessary perhaps than if you were to use the IPC interrupt or FIFO.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 10, 2009, 11:35:30 AM
Yeah, I forgot you aren't using libnds... so maybe there's something strange that affects both libnds and your IPC, but I've found a -really strange- way to make it work (tested going over the 500th restart...)

Basically is: when sending the address of the XM to play, mask it with 0x003FFFFF

in libxm7 example (arm9/main) is:
Code: [Select]
// sending pointer to the libxm7 engine on ARM7
#define FIFO_ADDRESSDATA_MASK 0x003FFFFF
fifoSendValue32(FIFO_XM7, (u32)Module & FIFO_ADDRESSDATA_MASK);

and on ARM7 side, if you receive something (not zero), add 0x02000000

in libxm7 example (arm7/main) is:
Code: [Select]
// received a pointer to a module that should start now
#define FIFO_ADDRESSBASE 0x02000000
XM7_PlayModule((XM7_ModuleManager_Type*)(command | FIFO_ADDRESSBASE));

Want to know the truth? I don't know why it works. I'd think there's a bug in libnds fifoSendValue32() but I couldn't find it (I've read the source now, that's where I took the two defines...) but you aren't using that...

Well, let me know if you've got any idea (and if it works with your own IPC too!)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 10, 2009, 11:53:09 AM
I did try that and it didn't work using IPC. I had some serious doubts. I'm pretty tired right now but if your up to testing this, you can try IPC by setting up the following #define.

Code: [Select]
#define IPC 0x027FF000
And both arm7 and arm9 can read from that memory to share data. Just be aware that if your reading the data on the arm7 in a vblank interrupt for example that you have to account for the delay on the arm7. This would be a good way to test to see if FIFO is screwing up or not.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 10, 2009, 12:12:56 PM
I did try that and it didn't work using IPC. I had some serious doubts.

I had them too :(  ... well, I won't set up an IPC now to test it, but I'll further investigate about the libnds FIFO strange behavior.

I also don't know how you're ensuring that the tune will be already stopped when calling the XM unloading routines... I think you can check if the 'State' member of the XM7_ModuleManager_Type struct has a XM7_STATE_STOPPED value, for example... (but, again, I'm experiencing the same behavior even not reloading the XM each time...)

edit: http://forums.devkitpro.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1510&p=3191#p3191 in case ;)



Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 10, 2009, 08:40:54 PM
Still got audio probs :( (well, music)

But..

We can now use L and R to switch screens (Thanks HK).. So, that is a bonus..

Work has been done on the title and some more little effects and a new Lobo level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 10, 2009, 08:43:32 PM
Sweeet! Thanks for including this level btw, officially this is as close as any of my games can get to DS, haha. Ye made me proud matey, oh wait-tear in me eye.....not manly.....
Beer...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 10, 2009, 08:52:54 PM
Beer will not help mate...

LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 10, 2009, 08:53:49 PM
It just did...hahaha! But I hit my eye on the fridge door while getting one so... tear again?  :'(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 10, 2009, 09:13:08 PM
Bugger, that was clumsy..

At least an onion did not roll out and land on your eye, secreting it's toxic fumes...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 10, 2009, 10:19:32 PM
Onion is secret? Since when?
Also, anyone got any custom levels to share? I would require one gremlins, one Back to the Future and one Hellraiser and Goonies without onions, please :D.

So far I got it down like this~

-Goatbusters - finished
-Casablanca - finished
-Back to the Future - waiting
-Gremlins - waiting
-Hellraiser - waiting, oh...
-Goonies - oh, waiting...

end of file...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 10, 2009, 10:27:30 PM
Hellraiser - tomorrow..

Sokky says he would love to do a level - just gotta think of what?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 10, 2009, 11:57:22 PM
Well, cool then. He can choose any of these which are waiting. Since you got Hellraiser covered, he can pick any of the rest of the pack.

Back to the Future or Gremlins or thy Goonies.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 06:12:18 AM
Still got audio probs :( (well, music)

I'm working on this. Yesterday I isolated the bug using the libXM7 example test (uses linbds FIFO system) and I could remove the replay library and still get the bug so looks like in that case the bug isn't in my library. But you're not using libnds and you're not using FIFO so I wonder what's happening.

It would be really useful an example of how you're using IPC to communicate. I know you've got a shared memory area where the two processors can exchange data, but -I was wondering- how did you signal from one processor to the other that there's data waiting in the queue?

Maybe HK has got some time to write a little C program to show me how you use IPC with libXM7?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 06:14:35 AM
Maybe HK has got some time to write a little C program to show me how you use IPC with libXM7?

Funny you mention it I'm working on a little demo now...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 06:19:11 AM
Funny you mention it I'm working on a little demo now...

I read brains  :D :D :D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 06:36:24 AM
Okay the plot thickens.. I can't get the IPC version to crash at all so there seems to be a bug in libnds' FIFO system (or you're not using it correctly). So this also points the problem in MMLL to be either in my implementation (which is pretty much the same as how I'm doing it in this C++ demo) or in Flash's init code somewhere. Well this must be a relief for you but it doesn't help MMLL much  :(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 07:09:17 AM
I'm watching the code. The first thing that I see is that no$gba gives 15634 (!!!!) errors right after the second time the song starts, but I see no reason for that...
Then this test program is not crashing, so there's surely something different in MMLL. But I'm curious about how can you be sure that

Code: [Select]
#define XM7_IPC (*((vu32*)0x027FF000 + 32))
is a safe place to store data... and you also have to be sure you're not overwriting it in by mistake with your program.


Btw I've got a suggestion. Since I know that in MMLL code you're unloading and reloading the XM each time it restarts but I guess you're not reallocating XM7_ModuleManager_Type struct, the pointer you pass thru the IPC should be the same each time you restart, so you could check if it's the same you previously received.

Another idea is that maybe you're not resetting the IPC to 0 'fast enough' and when next vblank comes there's still a pointer written there: that would trigger a module start when the module is already playing. So I would first read that value in a local variable, then set the IPC value to 0, then evaluate what to do (stop/start).

I hope it gives you some hint towards the solution...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 07:25:56 AM
You get an error running the demo I posted in No$? Wierd I didn't get any errors at all.

Anyway all those things you suggested are (sadly) been taken care of already.

1. I know the IPC location were using is safe because it's not using libnds therefore all that memory is available. IPC was the only method to communicate in libnds so it's known to be RAM available to use. The only other region used in IPC is for the audio system I wrote which is very similar to how the original libnds did it where volume, channel, pan etc. is sent through IPC.

2. The memory used to store the XM7_ModuleManager_Type is a fixed area of memory I have set aside. I did a little printf of the sizeof(XM7_ModuleManager_Type) to get the exact amount of bytes needed for it.

3. To make sure the data sent through IPC is received by the ARM7 before moving on is done by having a swiWaitForVBlank call as in the IPC demo I posted here. So there should be enough time.

Here is the music.s code on the arm9

Code: [Select]
.arm
.align
.text
.global initMusic
.global stopMusic

#define XM7_MODULEMANAGER_TYPE_SIZE 0xCE8
#define XM7_MODULE_IPC IPC+0x20
#define XM7_STOP -1
#define XM7_MOD_NOT_LOADED 0
#define XM7_MOD_LOADED 1

initMusic:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r1, lr}

@ set r1 to module to play and call

push {r1}

ldr r0, =modLoaded
ldr r1, [r0]
ldr r2, =XM7_MOD_NOT_LOADED
cmp r1, #XM7_MOD_LOADED
streq r2, [r0]
bne initMusicContinue

bl stopMusic
bl swiWaitForVBlank
bl XM7_UnloadXM

initMusicContinue:

pop {r1}

ldr r0, =Module @ Pointer to module data
bl XM7_LoadXM @ Load module

bl DC_FlushAll @ Flush

ldr r0, =XM7_MODULE_IPC @ Location in IPC for XM7 control
ldr r1, =Module @ Send module data location
str r1, [r0]

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r1, pc}

@ ---------------------------------------

stopMusic:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r1, lr}

ldr r0, =XM7_MODULE_IPC @ Location in IPC for XM7 control
ldr r1, =XM7_STOP @ Send stop command
str r1, [r0]

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r1, pc}

@ ---------------------------------------

.data
.align

modLoaded:
.word 0

Module:
.space XM7_MODULEMANAGER_TYPE_SIZE

.pool
.end

And here is the code on the arm7

Code: [Select]
#define XM7_MODULE_IPC IPC+0x20
#define XM7_STOP -1

#define MUSIC_CHANNEL 0
#define SOUND_CHANNEL 1
#define FORCE_SOUND_CHANNEL 2

#define STOP_SOUND -1
#define NO_FREE_CHANNEL -1
#define FIND_FREE_CHANNEL 0x80

.arm
.align
.text
.global main

interruptHandlerVBlank:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r8, lr}

ldr r1, =XM7_MODULE_IPC
ldr r0, [r1]
cmp r0, #0
blgt XM7_PlayModule

ldr r0, =XM7_MODULE_IPC
ldr r1, [r0]
mov r2, #0
cmp r1, #0
strgt r2, [r0]

ldr r0, =XM7_MODULE_IPC
ldr r1, [r0]
cmp r1, #XM7_STOP
bleq XM7_StopModule

ldr r7, =IPC_SOUND_DATA(SOUND_CHANNEL) @ Get a pointer to the sound data in IPC
ldr r8, =IPC_SOUND_LEN(SOUND_CHANNEL) @ Get a pointer to the sound data in IPC
ldr r2, =IPC_SOUND_CHAN(SOUND_CHANNEL) @ Get a pointer to the sound data in IPC
ldr r3, =IPC_SOUND_RATE(SOUND_CHANNEL) @ Get a pointer to the sound data in IPC
ldr r4, =IPC_SOUND_VOL(SOUND_CHANNEL) @ Get a pointer to the sound data in IPC
ldr r5, =IPC_SOUND_PAN(SOUND_CHANNEL) @ Get a pointer to the sound data in IPC
ldr r6, =IPC_SOUND_FORMAT(SOUND_CHANNEL) @ Get a pointer to the sound data in IPC
ldr r0, [r7] @ Read the value
ldr r1, [r8] @ Read the value
ldrb r2, [r2] @ Read the value
ldr r3, [r3] @ Read the value
ldrb r4, [r4] @ Read the value
ldrb r5, [r5] @ Read the value
ldrb r6, [r6] @ Read the value
mov r8, #0 @ Value to reset
cmp r0, #STOP_SOUND @ Stop Sound value?
streq r8, [r7] @ Clear the data
bleq stopSound @ Stop Sound
cmp r0, #0 @ Is there data there?
strgt r8, [r7] @ Clear the data
blgt playSound @ If so lets play the sound

ldmfd sp!, {r0-r8, pc} @ restore registers and return

@ ------------------------------------
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 08:08:37 AM
You get an error running the demo I posted in No$? Wierd I didn't get any errors at all.

I don't get one error, I get thousands! If you press F3 after the second restart you get "0 errors" message?  ???
Thanks for the code... I'm a very beginner with that but I think I understood what you're doing there.
My suggestion was like that: in that part of the arm7 code:


Code: [Select]
interruptHandlerVBlank:

stmfd sp!, {r0-r8, lr}

ldr r1, =XM7_MODULE_IPC
ldr r0, [r1]
cmp r0, #0
           @ --here--
blgt XM7_PlayModule

          @rest of code removed

I would write 0 to the IPC before calling XM7_PlayModule, because nobody assures us that it'll take less than a 1/60 of a second...



... btw, would be the following code right? (my first lines in ARM asm ever!!!  8)
Code: [Select]
ldr r2, #0
strgt r2, [r1]

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 08:45:58 AM
Yes that's correct and for a minute there I thought you were onto something as I hadn't been clearing the "-1" value after being sent it to stop the module. Unfortunately it didn't fix the problem. I do have another idea though and that is to get all the xm's from MMLL and have them rotate through in the C++ demo and see if it's problem caused by the xm's themselves.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 09:06:47 AM
[...] I do have another idea though and that is to get all the xm's from MMLL and have them rotate through in the C++ demo and see if it's problem caused by the xm's themselves.

Oh, right, I forgot to mention it... in the beta I'm testing I couldn't reproduce the bug, I kept on switching from one level to another for a couple of minutes (R key) but never found the music broken. Is that a problem that appeared from a specific moment on? Can I check a newer beta too?

And mainly... why are we always using the same topic for everything in that MMLL forum?  ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 10:01:01 AM
We can always split these posts off into their own thread. But anyway I just did a test with the C++ version of the demo using IPC rotating all the songs from MMLL and no problem whatsoever. So it really is a bug in MMLL somewhere.

Okay just pulled out all of the MMLL stuff and put just the basic audio code that will rotate through songs when pressing the L key. And it's still having issues. So I'm getting closer I guess?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 10:16:33 AM
Music bug fixed!!! I can't believe how stupid this mistake was.. I didn't realise XM7_UnloadXM required a pointer to the module struct! So I was calling it without placing the module struct pointer in r0 first

Here is the bug..

Code: [Select]
ldr r0, =Module            @ <-- THIS LINE OF CODE WAS MISSING!!!
bl XM7_UnloadXM

DOH! It's amazing how much havok one line of code can cause. Sorry about putting you on a wild goose chase sverx although we did find some wierd FIFO bug along the way. Good grief Charlie Brown!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 10:20:17 AM
ooops. I have tried that before.... Sometime very hard to find the bug, but easy to fix when found.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 10:52:40 AM
Music bug fixed!!! I can't believe how stupid this mistake was.. I didn't realise XM7_UnloadXM required a pointer to the module struct! So I was calling it without placing the module struct pointer in r0 first

Good! :) Yes, the function needs to know which module should be unloaded (because it's possible to load more than one module in memory, even if you can play just one of them a time...)

DOH! It's amazing how much havok one line of code can cause. Sorry about putting you on a wild goose chase sverx although we did find some wierd FIFO bug along the way.

Don't worry mate :) Btw what's incredible is that you've hit a different bug (libnds FIFO) when preparing a demo of the bug had on MMLL ;) Weird weird weird ;D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 10:58:41 AM
abot the movie levels: Could the feature not been called  Willy goes to Hollywood as a unlockable feature? Titlescreen could eventuelly change to that. Hovoer it depend memory used, and I still want  to use a single ragtime (I guess), but which one?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 11:05:25 AM
Willy goes to Hollywood.. I love it!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:07:51 AM
Great idea SF!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 11:10:59 AM
music could been snippets like C64 game Blagger Goes to Hollywood does (where the idea came from) using a paino or such and using one xm and then useing standard MM tune?

I do think I dosent create a level, but concrate to get music finish, I do still guess Jungle and some other tunes is missing (why I want a list, MMLL is a big bigger game for music than TDG).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 11, 2009, 11:15:26 AM
Great idea SF!!

Err did you notice I fixed the music bug? I even created a stripped back version of MMLL with just the music engine for testing. Only took me about 4 hours of work lol Thought you would be dancing around in excitement  ???

PS. I was thinking about splitting the music bug posts into their own thread whaddathink? I think they are quite pointless now. Hmm I don't think I even know how to do that come to think of it.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 11:17:20 AM
but happy you got the fixed.  Here it was no points to start new thread, it about codning.

I think was not need  to start a new thread. It was just ment to update the first thread when I have new tunes to create (spefic snippets from various movies), due I might forget it due this very large thread and got drown with important tunes (mostly for MMLL).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 11:18:17 AM
I still think it should be a separate release (MMG2H?), so that everybody can enjoy them even not completing the LL game. This way there will be also more memory :)

Btw I still haven't had a chance too see anything new...  :'(

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:39:51 AM
Err did you notice I fixed the music bug? I even created a stripped back version of MMLL with just the music engine for testing. Only took me about 4 hours of work lol Thought you would be dancing around in excitement  ???

PS. I was thinking about splitting the music bug posts into their own thread whaddathink? I think they are quite pointless now. Hmm I don't think I even know how to do that come to think of it.

Sorry mate, I told you Fridays were a bit mad... I just refreshed and read the last post.. Really sorry i did not notice..

But, REALLY THRILLED.. and I just did a little widdle... Thanks mate, you are a star!!!!!

Yes, perhaps the music issues should be split...

THANKS AGAIN!!!!   ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:42:52 AM
I still think it should be a separate release (MMG2H?), so that everybody can enjoy them even not completing the LL game. This way there will be also more memory :)

Btw I still haven't had a chance too see anything new...  :'(


Sorry mate, will send you a new build later, when I have time to play..

Well, We will continue adding a few movie levels then perhaps split them.. who knows? (or just select which game from the menu?)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 11:49:05 AM
hehe to games in one :-D. The title screen need to reflect than: One with lost levels and one with original levels (or classic levels eventuelly).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 12:27:32 PM
I don't think we should split the game in two because the 'movie levels' are just unlocked after you finish the regular ones. From what I gather, first you finish the regular set of 20 'lost levels'. That unlocks another set of levels like 'lost ones', not so sure how many cause it's up to Flash to scavenge some interesting ones. Then, after you finish those as an icing on the cake you unlock another set which is these 6 movie levels. In that case, no need to change anything like main menu screens or stuff cause these are really just an addition to lost levels and not enough to grant a completely new game.

Plus, we would probably go nutty bananas working on two MM games :D, better for Flash to reuse all the potential of the engine as its been set up right now rather then trying to stitch another game from the leftovers of the first.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 11, 2009, 12:46:16 PM
[...] cause these are really just an addition to lost levels and not enough to grant a completely new game.

I see. That's a pity btw.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 01:17:42 PM
Well, I would like to keep it as a single .nds file if possible.. We should be fine for memory...

How to add the new movie levels? That is the thing?

Perhaps, after so many 'lost levels' it unlocks another page of the 'holliwood' story?

I really don't know at the moment... Main thing is to get the levels in and the little effects and play from there?

The engine is fairly sound, so it would be possible to reuse that again one day?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 11, 2009, 01:27:21 PM
How many different platformtypes are there available on any one screen?

I mean, IIRC, on the original you had one solid block, one crumbling block, one "soft" block (that you can pass through from the bottom) and so on.

How is it in this version?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 01:36:40 PM
There's Solid, Crumbling, Conveyor Belt and plant trap thing which goes over solid mostly. That's pretty much it.

Flash, to make it simple, after the main 20 set is finished, you can simply go with..'And then you find yet another XX number of levels'. After those are completed then just after the last level, write something like 'As you went home for a nice relaxing beer and barbecue date with Lucy and Omar Sharif.......the frickin Void Celluloid Opens! AY!'
:D
After this, since Casablanca goes first, just follow the text that I've sent you (as that is the order of movie levels that follows the story) and you're done with all.

So to tie this in, we just need two drawings to explain the end of the first set/introduction of the second and end of the second set/introduction of the movie levels.


Oh, and barbecue thing is just hypothetical, you can write whatever you want, nightmare, out of body experience, black magic/satanism, etc.
:D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 01:48:03 PM
Conveyor L/R Animated
Conveyor L/R Non-Animated
Conveyor L/R Solid / non-Animated
Crumblers (7 stages + gone)
Solid Walls/Platforms
Jumpthrough Wals/Platforms
Killer thingys
Switches (at the moment reverse conveyors, but could do other stuff)
Keys

Er, think that is it at the mo?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 01:52:23 PM
Holycrap Switches!  ??? Totally forgot about these. So, besides the reversing cbelt...what else can this thing be scripted for? How about something that might fall down and kill enemies? Or trap them somehow at least?
Would be cool for like Gremlins and The Goonies levels to have something like that. However someone else really need to design those as I would prolly fuk it up proper.  :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 02:12:45 PM
I am not sure what else to use them for..

You could easily have a switch build/remove a wall or something, make the enemies go really slow... Turn the lights out HA HA (hellraiser!!!)

Something to think about?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 02:32:33 PM
Well, sounds great to me. Maybe when you do that Hellraiser level you can think about something like that, switching lights off? :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 07:47:19 PM
Had a thought about levels for movies...

The last 2,

King Kong (1930's) (whenever it was)

Rocky Horror...

For the last movie level, with the RKO tower like in the film, at the end... :) (music - timewarp?)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 07:56:45 PM
King Kong sounds great so we don't have to use the BW effect on Mountain Kong level. Rocky is good as well but that's it, no more! :D
We got grand total of eight movie levels then so start crankin' boys!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 08:13:06 PM
I just though the end scene from RHS would be a good end to the game...

Still doing Hellraiser!! :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 08:20:25 PM
And it would, which reminds me to jump to the store tonight and pick up a movie~long time no see. Might pick some beer as well, good excuse-all for the sake of the game.  :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 08:26:12 PM
Of course ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 09:09:17 PM
just sent a another toccata version witrh a more effectfull organ and better cheat key release, so it should sound much better than the very much flat version of it (these that just got the newest demo today).... and its only use 47kb as well.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 09:23:25 PM
It is nice and small, but it is a bit lifeless?

Perhaps it need something, a little of the SF magic..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 09:40:09 PM
the problem is I want reverb which is not possible on XM's, due a missing feature in XM7Play, which could simulate that very well (XM7Play wont take any volume points). I do think I should delay the beginning a bit more, so it dosent fell empty here, rest is ok. Its MUCH better than before, but could still been better edit of the sound sample used. Bt I working on the titletune yet.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 10:29:04 PM
I just think it may be a bit too classic...? Ie... I find Vanessa mae's version much more poppy? Or, the version that 'Sky' (group) released...

That ROCKED!! :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 10:44:51 PM
Link? I might can use a another patch than a Organ to sound diffecent using the same tune (the tune was found via youtube and the user got a link directly to a mid version of it)? Mightbeen a flute/string sound?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 10:47:30 PM
it actuelly works very nicely on that level. Lobo asked for the tune. I could use other than a Organ patch using same tune?
Is there anyway to add little cymbal hits? I dont think drums would work, but a little bit of percussion may really elevate it? What do you think?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 10:50:15 PM
Can you post it so we hear?  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 10:53:17 PM
Lobo, have you ever heard "Sky's" version of Tocatta?

That blew my mind as a kid (30 years ago I suppose).. Mind you, I have not heard it since then, but the memory is sweet!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 10:56:28 PM
Just saw it/heard it on tube, yeah good, something along the lines of that-deep powerful organ sound.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:06:48 PM


Just after the intro when it kicks in, I think that is great and would work really well..

My god, we are digging up some ANCIENT stuff LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 11, 2009, 11:07:34 PM
Lobo, have you ever heard "Sky's" version of Tocatta?

That blew my mind as a kid (30 years ago I suppose).. Mind you, I have not heard it since then, but the memory is sweet!

Fuck...you're old. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:10:10 PM
Yak Yak - Cackle!!

PS... This bloke is pretty good too....

Give him a chance - wow!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:17:08 PM
Or this...



or



Well, it is a GREAT tune.. Even for us old un's
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 11, 2009, 11:17:43 PM
Edit: (this is for Reply #236)

Yeah, that is pretty good. I may be too monotonous for a level theme as it's really gaining a lot by being long which isn't the best for a level tune...I think...but I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time...anyway, don't listen to me. :)

His t-shit is awesome though. Want one. :D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 11:20:51 PM
Miner actully using Classics as it root, but both videos is nice and good sound and very well played, but it might need a lots of work in XM which allready use all 6 channels when chords is used (midi versionen used about 9 notes on sammetime, so removed uneeded onces).

Personly I want this one simple, but I think should use another sound than the organ currectly used (example on some outdoor levels)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:21:10 PM
anyway, don't listen to me. :)

Pardon, What?

Quote
His t-shit is awesome

Though, I wouldn't drink it! (I prefer Lemon T)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:22:12 PM
Miner actully using Classics as it root, but both videos is nice and good sound and very well played, but it might need a lots of work in XM which allready use all 6 channels when chords is used (midi versionen used about 9 notes on sammetime, so removed uneeded onces).

Personly I want this one simple, but I think should use another sound than the organ currectly used (example on some outdoor levels)?

As I say mate, you can use more channels... Even 8 could be a help?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 11, 2009, 11:29:06 PM
Its was only when some chords (due over many octaves) was played elsewise the midi/xm only used about 4 of them. I also heard C64 versions of it as well which really sound nicely only with 3 channels (one was a tunnel racing game I remember).

I have also some limited filespace when all tunes is finised (themes and movie snippts as a shared xm). I could do convert some samples to 8 bit without any problems to save memory, but wont do that if not needed, but better do that when the game is under finalizing and I begin to polish final bits of the tunes (if needed).

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 11, 2009, 11:32:01 PM
The C64 did have some fantastic music... :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 11, 2009, 11:36:30 PM
The C64 did have some fantastic music... :)

Amen!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 12, 2009, 06:57:24 AM
I have a idea to a level which mightbeen could been a Terminator level, but not sure. How wide and height (in tiles) can it been? I think I simple do colors on a C64 basic screen and send that to Lobo..


PS. I forget to say I really like the animated title screen at the bottom.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 12, 2009, 11:13:11 AM
I just began on a version of Alley Cat in a bit spooky version (cavern).......
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 12, 2009, 04:06:48 PM
the problem is I want reverb which is not possible on XM's, due a missing feature in XM7Play, which could simulate that very well (XM7Play wont take any volume points).

Yeah, XM format has no reverb, that's a feature of IT format AFAIK. But I don't get the problem about the volume points. libXM7 eXtended Module support is complete, so it supports both volume&panning envelopes. So I guess I don't get the problem... :-\  ... or did you find a bug in it? If it's so, please I need some details... :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 12, 2009, 04:25:35 PM
I have a idea to a level which mightbeen could been a Terminator level, but not sure. How wide and height (in tiles) can it been? I think I simple do colors on a C64 basic screen and send that to Lobo..


PS. I forget to say I really like the animated title screen at the bottom.

256x144 is the actual area you're working in. The size of the image is 256x152 simply because the other 8 pixels are used at the bottom to store the animation for crumbling blocks, conveyor belt and the items you pick up (keys, apples, etc) but don't worry about those just leave that 8 pixel area at the bottom empty.
So if making a level, make sure that all the blocks fit within 256x144.
See that picture I've posted before, resize it down to 256x152 and use it as a template. You'll see exactly how all the blocks are working.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 12, 2009, 04:50:50 PM
I haven never heard any volume envelopes in the No$Gba emulator, which could even been a unemulated feature? Hence I have not used any of them in these modules I create, but use Cxx commands instead (much more simple, but works ok). The only tune with a problem could been piano.xm (link to you soon via PM), which would been sound more nicely with that, due it sound a bit flat... But again I could edit the tune to use more Cxx commands.....



You could hear it with toccata, which used it a lots, but diddent take any one of them. It could just been a missing emulator feature why I dosent want to use that, but works on real DS?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 13, 2009, 08:35:32 AM
I thinking about the cheat mode (not being write here how to activate that), so you still can die, but with unlimited air and/or lives, so you can test the levels better? I also want a speed timer (a Time Attack mode).

Some tunes (like Ally Cat) might been replaced before final.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 13, 2009, 09:07:45 AM
I only chucked the cheat mode in quickly, but unlimited lives would be better. I will also change the code to access it at some point, so it is a bit harder to guess.
I will add score and proper level complete hopefully this evening..
Then perhaps do something with the death bussiness, so something happens when you die.
Also, need to add some sound effects for a few things...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 13, 2009, 09:35:06 AM
The Konami kode? Of course before the officiel release, it should been harder to activate that. But no worry about it now. Personly only Level Skipping and Unlimited Lives is required as a cheatmode... And unlimited AirTime using another code.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 13, 2009, 09:42:12 AM
I haven never heard any volume envelopes in the No$Gba emulator, which could even been a unemulated feature? [...]

No, I don't think it's an emulator issue. First of all because there's no envelope support on hardware, second because I also was testing libXM7 mainly on no$gba.
Which XM7Play version are you using for your tests? Latest is r2009-005 ...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 13, 2009, 09:50:51 AM
I think SF is just using the MMLL beta's for audio testing within no$
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 13, 2009, 10:19:46 AM
I normally not use that feature, due I dident hear any of them, so in the beta's the piano.xm volume envelopes is disabled..... No other tunes with MMLL theme on it use that.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 13, 2009, 12:42:46 PM
I still have no access to the real hardware, but I guess I need one before this year is over. Not this month, but mightbeen next one? Hoveover the game works fine, but nothing compared to the real hardware I know.......
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 13, 2009, 12:53:55 PM
Ops... I see now. Well, if you've got the devKitPro you can use libXM7 example source code, replacing the bundled tune with your XM and recompiling it... this way you'd be able to hear the way it sound even on no$gba.

Btw I'll check better everything tomorrow.

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 13, 2009, 01:01:22 PM
That can help a lot, so Flash dosent need to send so many demos just to checkout tunes sound (even I like demoes/betas of that game  ;D).... I'm download the kit now.

I'm are not sure how to add D:\Programmer\devkitPro\devkitARM to the path to the XM7Play example?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 13, 2009, 04:34:21 PM
I'm are not sure how to add D:\Programmer\devkitPro\devkitARM to the path to the XM7Play example?

After you installed devKitPro, check if everything's ok compiling one of the libnds examples bundled with it... then, if everything's working correctly, download libXM7 (the library, latest version is 1.00) and place the two archive (.a) file in your libnds/lib folder and the include (.h) file in the libnds/include folder.

After that you've got to download the libXM7 example package and unzip it to a folder of your choice (a simple choice can be to use the same libnds/examples folder...) and compile that just as you did before for the libnds example.

I hope it works that way :)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 14, 2009, 03:09:18 AM
Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your levels...or else!!  :D

Anyone got any levels to fit some those poor movie levels in waiting?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 14, 2009, 08:10:14 AM
Ok, there's surely a bug in the XM loading routines. :'(  While I'm working on finding and correcting it, you can use MilkyTracker to open and save again the XM, this way the envelope works. (... now I've got to check what's different in Skale's way of saving the XM...)

Bye!

edit: The problem is that Skale is not saving a 100% compliant XM file... quite a common problem, btw, many trackers do not fully comply to the original format, there are even some specialized tools (http://battleofthebits.org/lyceum/View/BoobieSqueezer) in 'squeezing' bytes out of tunes, and my loader does support such squeezed formats. But my loader wasn't expecting THIS :(

I'll release a correction of my routines with the next release, which won't be so soon btw, so in the while it's better to re-save with MilkyTracker or to squeeze it with the aforementioned tool.

Bye again :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 14, 2009, 12:38:11 PM
I just remembered two things I forgot to tell before.

1st: there's a small bug in the GB level: the monster's eyes have higher priority that what it should, so willy, slimer and some platforms fall behind them...

2nd: I barely have ever heard two sound effects playing at the same time so I guess there's no problem even if an XM takes up to 14 channels for himself. But as a pessimistic option I would choose 10 channels ;) This way the background music could be more elaborate and it can be a good idea especially with some tunes :)

Bye! :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 14, 2009, 01:12:27 PM
I fixed the right eye in the gb level.. Well spotted.. I noticed it last night when messing around.

The music can use 10 channels if needed. jump and fall sfx share the same fixed channel, but there will be a few other sfx added in due course. Key collect, switches, etc.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 14, 2009, 02:06:22 PM
10-12 channels would also eat very more memory (due I not use many samples as well), due extra pattern use some space. cavern.xm also for much time actually only did use 5 channels this time. I property cannot hole the filesize around 175kb each, some more and few less. Hence I like to limit 6 channels which still sound very nice. I really like to limit by self as well. 6 channels is nice for music and the game does not need all 16 channels to been used if not required.

For movie levels I might use more channels, so I can separate chords by a elpiano. For normal levels chords played instruments is exported as a single instrument. The original MMLL tune only use 3 minor chords (Cm, Fm and Gm),so that way is easy to do that. Movie levels might use other type of chords as well. That why I want to use shared XM on these levels, so I can create some good snippets.

I also final prepare the tunes in Milky Tracker, because I was think the same it might not save correctly, howover only piano.xm is really need that feature.

Did you got the cavern.xm by email (mostly only used 5 channels and only rarely used 6 for some fills)?

I guess there is need a another general tune, so I checking out the original miner8.xm.... (if I not due more speciel mixes of original MM song)?

_______

the DTG do use 8 channels for music and 4 channels for weather mod played as a seperate xm. I cant wait hear that mixed in. I do still need more work on the weather mod (I now that HeadKaze)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 14, 2009, 02:36:29 PM
Yes, I did get Cavern.xm and it is in the latest build which i will hopefully have ready tonight.

It sounds really good and i have put it on 'at the centre of the earth' for now.. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 15, 2009, 05:44:49 AM
no news since warhawk music? Howabout annonces of both games as inprogress?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 15, 2009, 06:43:39 AM
Oh, I skipped that part...

I have also some limited filespace when all tunes is finised (themes and movie snippts as a shared xm). I could do convert some samples to 8 bit without any problems to save memory, but wont do that if not needed, but better do that when the game is under finalizing and I begin to polish final bits of the tunes (if needed).

...well, actually the final output of the Nintendo DS is 32KHz (the mixing freq), 10 bits (the resolution), stereo of course.
This means that when mixing up 4 or more channels it's virtually the same having 8 bits or 16 bits samples. I suggest you to take one of your XMs and prepare an 8 bits samples version of it and compare the output (well, I guess that test should be done on hardware because I'm not sure that the emulators will reproduce this perfectly...)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 15, 2009, 05:31:09 PM
Some 8 bit samples is very noisy in traditional players.... 10bit is still better than 8bit. I mostly use 16bit 22khz samples, few times also 16khz. I might do a 8 bit versions to been send to checking using MilkyTracker sample converter. With 22khz samples I have around 180kb as max in mind. With 8bit samples it might been turned down the size. This can been done if required under finalizing.

I do can hear stereo on the xm's which I did a little stereo.

I have something to ask? Can all music and level graphics been loaded from a external rom area to memory, so a lots of internal memory can been saved and possible to extend the 4MB used (if required)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 15, 2009, 06:15:57 PM
It can be, we did that with Warhawk...

But I really want to avoid that in this release.. I want to keep the file under 3.7 meg.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 16, 2009, 06:15:37 AM
Can all music and level graphics been loaded from a external rom area to memory, so a lots of internal memory can been saved and possible to extend the 4MB used (if required)?

Using a filesystem. EFS/NitroFS for example. Then the XMs will be files that would be loaded when needed.
I have unreleased functions -but I can share them if needed-  for that, if that will be the chosen path... but it seems to me Flash has a different idea (and I think that he's right, we don't need it...)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 16, 2009, 06:21:03 AM
The addition of the file system also causes compat probs with several cards - it is best to keep the entire data within the executable area. With Warhawk, we had no choice because we wanted the fantastic soundtrack. This was something the original was remembered for! Manic Miner has never been in this position on the spectrum.. Though the music we have now is wonderful.. We still have room for several more tunes.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 16, 2009, 06:35:20 AM
The addition of the file system also causes compat probs with several cards

Yeah, I've read about those problems.

Btw I'm very curious to know how many tunes are there now and how many tunes are going to be in the final version. And the size of them (min-max). Flash knows what I'm thinking ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 16, 2009, 08:21:16 AM
Yes, I have an idea :)

At the moment there are 11 tunes ranging from 7k to 280k, though I think (with the movie levels and completion/game over) there will be around 18-20 tunes.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 16, 2009, 10:32:06 AM
I still not having plan to use the first song I created that use whole 280KB memory (still to much I say), which was before I got the idea about variours themes of the same song. I have sent you a another tune in mp3 preview per email. check that out in little different style, but still very Reggie.

Gameover, levelend (apart if you want to use the first sample you got which works quite well) tunes and other jingles would been in a shared xm with subtunes. Here the organs can works very well, quite like the title tune.

movie tunes would do the same, but own patches and plans to use 8 channels (so I can use full chords using 3 channels and not as one channel which mostly used ingame).

List of movies BTW? plans to do snippets of it like same way the game, Blagger goes to Hollywood does, here More loop friendly. Much faster to do that in shared xm.

First one would been little GB snippet.

I look on demo soon and trying to complete the new level, but a bit tired today and a lots to do today with friends.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 16, 2009, 11:46:25 AM
Oh, it's finally starting to work :)

Here's the idea: gzip the XMs and uncompress them (with zlib) when it's needed. That requires an uncompress buffer (mallocated at run time) that should be at least as big as the bigger file. But this way the space occupied in the NDS by the XMs will be about 2/3 ... so it means we need to do some calculations.

Btw it can be a good idea if we have some files having all almost the same size, IMHO.

At the moment I've got a demo partially working. It decompresses but it gives error but the XM loads ok. Weird.  ???

Well, tell me your opinion before I spend too many hours on it ;)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 16, 2009, 11:56:23 AM
I knew that was what you were thinking LOL

The idea is sound (no pun intended)

All depends on decompression speed
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 16, 2009, 12:27:45 PM
The idea is sound

 :D

All depends on decompression speed

mmm... I don't know how to measure it.

Looks like it's taking (with no$gba on my PC, will run tests on hardware later...) about 400 ms for decompressing a ~400KB gzip'd XM to his original size (~600KB) but this is twice the size of our currently bigger tune, right?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 16, 2009, 12:32:38 PM
Yes, so....

Based on that - we SHOULD be ok?

Sadly, there is only one way to really know - and that is to test it (in game that is)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 16, 2009, 12:50:31 PM
I've got some more tests to run anyway... because at the moment there are some things I still have to deal with. One is that you need to manually edit (with an hex editor) each .gz file to make the decompression work, the other is that it gives an error even if it decompress just fine. I'm working on both, I'll let you know.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 16, 2009, 03:14:06 PM
Im still not home... So no new general tunes before tomorrow. I guess the endlevel sample should been used and allready here use the other processor for decompression so it can been ready faster?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 17, 2009, 12:02:30 AM
Not a bad idea SF, you could send a pointer to the compressed data over to the ARM7 which can have the buffer there, decompress and play. Although sverx's xm lib has the load routine on the arm9 side. Doesn't sound like zlib will take that long to decompress and it would only be done at the start of the level anyway. Are you considering adding zlib compression support to the actual xm lib itself?

Also what are you using to compress the xm's? Perhaps you need to use a different tool to compress them? I assume your using Sektor's ndszlib port (http://gpf.dcemu.co.uk/ndsSDL.shtml) along with gzip (http://www.gzip.org/) rather than something like 7Zip?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 02:53:39 AM
Need to go slightly off the XM topic to something else for a moment. I've told Flash about it but the rest of you folks should know. It is something that has been bothering me for years about news posting but now it's just-broke that fukin camel's back with a stupid straw.

Sadly, I've discovered today while looking for the original Lost Levels pictures (similar to what Flash has posted on the first page) that a 'DEMO' of MMLL DS has been 'released' to the public, apparently today.

Ok, head hurts. For whoever did this first (cause the rest just copy/pasted and slightly modified that 'news') and I think I know who did it, this news has spread all over the place oddly and it's one wrong case after another. In case any of you unregistered viewers here are from those places which have posted the 'news' of the 'demo', let me clarify a few things (before Flash wakes up and eat you alive, deservedly so).

MANIC MINER LL DS DEMO WAS NEVER RELEASED. NEVER.

Hope that makes sense. What has been posted on some sites is unfortunately that pre Alpha Alpha Alpha Alpha Alpha of the Alpha test for speed and collision. Not a DEMO and especially so no one was 'granted to try out the Demo' (cause you're cool or something) so far except that the news about the game was posted on RR, deservedly so as the folks over there DO check the news before posting it, not just randomly jump to conclusions about what is going on. Needles to say they use brains more than CTRL+C & CTRL+V  in order to make something that can be called 'NEWS'.

And yes, this is bullshit to see things happening in such wild, disorganized and ultimately wrong and disrespectful way toward the authors. Not only that the news posted about the build is wrong (demo and alpha test are different things, very) but the news about remake is completely wrong!

 If the original poster of this 'news' took his frickin time to skim through the odd 19 pages so far, he would realize that this game IS NOT a ZX remake but collection of Lost Levels from systems in range from GBA to ORIC and odd ones in between, made in one place for the first time on DS with inclusion of 'custom levels'. That is what this game is all about.

But, 19 pages is too much, it's easier to simply Cut/Paste whatever you find on page 1 and throw in a mix of pictures you find and voila~ my webpage lives!

This is amateurish bullshit and completely wrong way of informing the audience out there by force feeding them with news taken out of context. In my writing class in college, anyone posting this as news based on such research would get  minus F(ucked) ~ for eternity!

Just not fukin cool! Reason to get upset? We're all here bustin' asses to make it work and you can't put two and two together? Can't wait a fukin month or two before it's released? Can't ASK for news, ask for details, ask for an actual  demo?  Instead you just blindly jump to conclusions or whatever fits your understanding as long as it fills the fukin news page on your fukin websites for today and then you'll see what to do tomorrow, rip some other bullshit news, 'Hey, I've heard that Warhawk is in development for DS, let's make the news cause it might be out in October'!

THANKS A FUKIN BUNCH!



Ok, guys, continue with that Xm problem...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 17, 2009, 04:10:27 AM
Wow that really is an early beta. Infact the only binary posted here and in the second post. I don't know what to say about it other than the same thing happened to Warhawk DS and it just seems like this "war" between websites to get the first post/news out about a game. Once one posts it they all do. I think the most annoying part is it always seems to be a really early alpha and in some ways embarrassing because it's not intended for the public. Even now if you search "Warhawk DS" on Google 5 results down is a really eary alpha version of Warhawk that got leaked out.

My personal pet peeves about a news item is (1) Getting the facts wrong (like even simple things like who the author(s) of the game are) (2) Releasing early alpha tests that are obviously not meant for public release (3) Hosting the binaries even when specifically asked to link back to a website.

Why release a pre-alpha anyway? It's not like you can play the game or get any sort of enjoyment out of it. It doesn't really make sense. There is nothing wrong with posting a news item about an "upcoming game" that's "in development", "coming soon" but why bother posting a binary and having people think it's some sort of official demo?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 17, 2009, 06:09:20 AM
Oh wow...  >:( how do they get that demo? I'm sure I didn't give it anybody, not even my closest friends! :(

Btw now I think you should write a news in the homepage about the fact that this 'release' it's not -yet- a demo but a leaked developing version. Then maybe we could move all the posts from this topic to a new one and replace them with a single post (with the very same link) so that everybody following the link will hit that message. IMHO, of course.

edit: oh, now I see... it's the .rar attached at one of the first posts of this topic! What the f=$£...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 06:16:33 AM
Yes, it is bloody annoying when one person spots an executable of a game in VERY early stages and posts this as NEWS! We had exactly the same happen with Warhawk a while before Lobo had joined the team. So, a terrible looking very early demo of that was spread as "Warhawk DS Released", much like now?

Perhaps I should not have posted that demo all that time ago? But.. then again.. This is ours website and why the hell can we not post demo's? It is nice to show the very early production of a game and that version was posted to allow people to give me feedback on if I had the play mechanics right before I went full steam ahead and got to work on the rest of the code.

The sad thing (as HK noted) is that even after full release, these pre-alphas (just look at the filename for the original picture) will still linger everywhere, and some will not even cover the release..

It makes me mad!!! Why the hell would someone think that posting news on that would gain Kudos? Madness!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 17, 2009, 06:31:38 AM
Back to the XM-zlib topic... no, I'm still not planning to make a release library out of it, but... who knows ;)

I made a couple more test yesterday... the only important thing I discovered is that on my DS it's a bit slower than on my PC with no$gba (I couldn't believe that!). So decompressing a 400 KB gzip'd XM back to his original size (almost 600 KB) takes ~480 ms (125 uncompressions in 60 seconds) on my NDSLite. All that is done on ARM9 of course, since it's done in the loading side of the library, not on the replaying side.

Also what are you using to compress the xm's? Perhaps you need to use a different tool to compress them? I assume your using Sektor's ndszlib port (http://gpf.dcemu.co.uk/ndsSDL.shtml) along with gzip (http://www.gzip.org/) rather than something like 7Zip?

I'm using Sektor's port and I'm g-zipping file with a g-zipping tool I already have on this PC. But the uncompress() function takes an input buffer containing a deflated bitstream, but the gzip file has its file header but the stream header is missing. And I also suspect (I'm still investigating this) that the CRC of the file is different from that of the stream, thus the error I'm still getting even if the decompression is working.

I hope I'll work it out in a couple of days :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 06:35:29 AM
I am looking forward to it, and if you can get it working, it would still be a great addition to the library.

Decompression will only need to be done at level start, so a handful of millisecs SHOULD not be a problem and the saving in space should be very welcome.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 17, 2009, 06:52:58 AM
a handful of millisecs SHOULD not be a problem and the saving in space should be very welcome.

I think it'll take 1/4 of a second for an XM whose original size is around 300 KB. I also forgot to ask what's the total size of the all XMs so far... just curiosity :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 07:04:16 AM
I just remember 2 very early demos (alpha really) actually got released in one of the first pages (when backgrounds was going to been experiments), but annoyring if people think this is the officiel demo, which is not.

This is why we need some news post in the frontpage about the status to make sure, due I guess no one read this very long thread.

I have never releaseed any newer betas (MMLL or nor TDG) or such I have got by emails. I might shortly shown it to a very close friend, but he have only seen that, not played.

PS. Why are my logo in the credits screen lighther than others and not back background?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 07:31:32 AM
No, noone here leaked anything, that's for sure. What happened is that one person came casually to the forum, strolled through the first page of MM diary, looking for some 'fresh' news for his fukin site. What do you know, he finds something in .rar that is an .nds file, download it, host it at his site, call it 'NEWS', 'DEMO' and then the rest of the sites followed with minor changes or complete cut/paste posting. And the .rar in question, now this is funny, is 25 DAYS OLD!

Released on August 23rd and the day its being posted as a 'DEMO' was yesterday, September 17.
Just WOW!
If those people are really following developers and their work (which they're not), they wouldn't wait for 25 frickin days to release an alpha test! Why wasn't it posted 25 days ago then?

Because it was random visit and random scavenging/leech sort which made that 'news'.
And yeah, like in case of Warhawk, this might as well be for some 'that final version or news about the game', not to mention bloody confusion that this can generate. It's ADIOS BRAINS formula that these sites are operating on, like HK says, just posting anything to stay relevant in some petty war they're waging, to them news means quantity of information, not quality and they don't give a shit about developers, just that shiny banner (or 300 of them) to bring them a buck or two from sponsors because they GOT NEWS. They're just pathetic.

Seriously, I'm disgusted after seeing this but it teaches a few lessons, one very important-
don't post binaries around the site anymore until the game is finished, send it via email and we're fine. At least not to give the reason to random lurker to degenerate the information as they see it fit!

Good thing that at least TDG never got any binaries posted, pheeew...

Now, Ok..back to XM, hope it works out fine.

Oh and fix that spacefractal logo, seems lighter   :D, I'm off to bed.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 07:56:39 AM
hey where do you live? its morning here in Denmark (10:56) :-D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: RevStu on September 17, 2009, 07:58:49 AM
Hello! Just thought I should join in, really. I have to say I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the progress that's been made on this, and the new graphics look astonishingly good. (Can't comment on gameplay or music as it seems the alpha version isn't available now, except for the one that DS-Scene have just leaked.) I'm especially happy that Flash is focusing on making the levels as close to the originals as possible, rather than tweaking them to make them easier - some of them are extremely hard, but they're supposed to be. 20 stages isn't a lot in this day and age, and you don't want people zipping through them in half an hour. (The stages in Super Mario Bros The Lost Levels were brutally tough too.)

Just wanted to throw in my 2p on the extra-levels thing. To me, it's important that The Lost Levels stands alone, including only levels that were in official MM releases. The idea of including other new levels is great, but my personal feeling is that they should be kept separate from the main game. The SAM Coupe version of MM had three totally separate level sets in it, and I'd like to see any extra levels appear as a separate game mode, either available from the start or unlocked when you finish the main game.

I've already messaged Flash to offer some story text to appear between levels, which could be adapted from the original copy I wrote for Retro Gamer and appear in a nice little scroll like the one seen in the Horace screenshot in this thread. Very very excited at developments so far, can't wait to see more...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 08:14:58 AM
Oh and fix that spacefractal logo, seems lighter   :D, I'm off to bed.

That was fixed in the latest version emailed yesterday
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 08:23:07 AM
Great to see you on the board Stuart... ;)

Hello! Just thought I should join in, really. I have to say I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the progress that's been made on this, and the new graphics look astonishingly good. (Can't comment on gameplay or music as it seems the alpha version isn't available now, except for the one that DS-Scene have just leaked.) I'm especially happy that Flash is focusing on making the levels as close to the originals as possible, rather than tweaking them to make them easier - some of them are extremely hard, but they're supposed to be. 20 stages isn't a lot in this day and age, and you don't want people zipping through them in half an hour. (The stages in Super Mario Bros The Lost Levels were brutally tough too.)

Some levels have 'minor' tweaks, not to make them easier, but to make them possible. The problem is, Oric - different jump mechanic, when you jump and hit a platform above, you fall in the direction of the jump. Archimedes - The jump distance is a few pixels longer than the original, etc...
Also, I have struggled for ages on "In a deep dark hole" to try and map the invisible platforms... ha ha - I cannot guarantee they are 100%, but it is hard and plays well..

Quote
Just wanted to throw in my 2p on the extra-levels thing. To me, it's important that The Lost Levels stands alone, including only levels that were in official MM releases. The idea of including other new levels is great, but my personal feeling is that they should be kept separate from the main game. The SAM Coupe version of MM had three totally separate level sets in it, and I'd like to see any extra levels appear as a separate game mode, either available from the start or unlocked when you finish the main game.
I think that is the way we will go.. Either, unlocked after completion (my fave idea) or accessable as another set from the title?

Quote
I've already messaged Flash to offer some story text to appear between levels, which could be adapted from the original copy I wrote for Retro Gamer and appear in a nice little scroll like the one seen in the Horace screenshot in this thread. Very very excited at developments so far, can't wait to see more...
I will look into that, and perhaps send you a Demo soon (if you wish?)
I just don't want to cause too much of a delay between levels.. I will see how it goes hopefully today, all being well.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 08:31:08 AM
haha, I just checkout demo, and I was just up from bed and did not have time yesterday.

Then I gonna think I release that demo on my site..... Just kidding.

And yes the sf logo is now much better :-D

I just tested some of the new levels (with cheat).

In a Deep Dark Hole is evil, which require some attempts, but its actually possible to complete that one.

Just playing other levels now....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 08:34:59 AM
Hello! Just thought I should join in.....

Might I add to that, "About bloody time"

 :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 08:41:14 AM
In Bright Light, Bright Light seen not possible, due you allways hit the lamp on the top (you allways stop on convolve)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 08:46:28 AM
There is a switch on the left hand side that will reverse the conveyor belt :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 08:56:37 AM
that one is not easy to spot, since it very integrated into the foreground. I did once and did not noticed it got reserved.... elsewise its a nice level.

I got The Dragon Users Bonus completed. Howover I think I took the keys i wrong order, so it was not the fastest route I took.

Does the animals walk in the air in Eddie's Forest? That look a bit odd and should been something bird or something that.

Would been nice if the Willy got something Attribute clash in the Spectrum level for simulate more the original?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 17, 2009, 11:35:05 AM
[...] it teaches a few lessons, one very important- don't post binaries around the site anymore until the game is finished, send it via email and we're fine.

Right. Do post more screenshots btw ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 17, 2009, 12:07:25 PM
I'm sending to Flash a little demo of how to use libXM7 and zlib, he can share it with whoever he wants, it's using SF's piano.xm ...

btw I don't know if we're going to use it as it is now. I'm still trying to get rid of the error (it decompress perfectly but it says it isn't so...) and to use that we need to:

- (optional) squeeze each XM with that tool I mentioned some posts ago (it saves some KB and makes them more compatible with libXM7 loader. The resulting file IS a valid XM btw)
- gzip each XM separately (with -nv9 command line options: makes best compressions [-9], doesn't store the filename in it [-n] ... verbose [-v] so you see how much it has been compressed)
- open each .gz file with an hex editor: remove the first 8 bytes, then replace the (new) 1st byte with 0x78 and the (new) 2nd byte with 0x01 (we're removing gzip header and putting there zlib compressed stream header info. The resulting file won't be longer opened with gzip of course...)

This way it's possible to decompress it (and load the XM) at run time, in some milliseconds.

I hope to find a better way but I've had no luck until today.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 05:13:53 PM
all instruments is now converted to 8 bit and it acteully still sound very nice and save very much memory. I do release my tunes after the game release as the way the meant with with 16bit samples.....

2 new tunes today, and I doing rework the first tune I created (the original miner.xm).

Lobo, I really like the level, I just think the left switch should been a bit more clear or move a tile to the right? I like the level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 07:24:46 PM
Sorry there have not been a great deal of updates recently...

I had a back tooth removed that had cracked about 2 years ago.. I put it off till the pain was too much.. It got infected (Amoxycillin here we come), so we parted company on Tuesday... Bye bye sweet tooth...

But... The open gum has now infected the jaw... LOL, and antibiotics are not really touching it.. :( I keep cleaning it out but it is not much fun when you can poke your jaw bone.. yuk!

Downside is, it has given me a temperature and flu-like symptoms, and severe lack of sleep... :(

So, please post the get well cards to.......

Anyway... Enough of me and let's talk about my little Willy....

A few updates today. Stuart Campbell made a few comments about the levels and some of these have been tweaked. Also, a couple of new fx have been added.. eyes in the darkness for 'deep dark hole' and a nice flickering lightbulb for "bright light, bright light".
I am now doing the data for level 13.

SF has passed me loads of music with reduced file size that has brought the filesize to under 2m. This is great as it now means that the movie levels can easily have themed tunes for each of them (if SF is happy to do so)

Oh, and my jaw is sore.. SNIFF!!

PS. I should really say.. Stuart Campbell (RevStu) is a writer for RG that was responsible for the Lost Levels article. So, please folks... BLAME HIM!!!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 07:39:47 PM
Ok, a couple of level pictures..

This is now the last picture that will be shown from the 'extra' levels - the remaining 5 will remain secret...

(http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/p2pic1.png)   (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/p2pic2.png)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 07:50:47 PM
For the gremlins level, I wouldn't move that bottom switch because I've learned by jumping that you can turn it on/off easily so you would have to repeat the whole process. How about just changing the colors a bit so it stands out instead of moving it? Like in the pic.
Also, what happened to the second switch..or is it now that only one controls the both CBs? I mean, that's not bad either.
The thing with light is that many won't expect to die by touching it, still haven't played with that setup so I can't tell but you're supposed to wait until the light is dimmed to jump to the left, right? Might be hard for many to understand that actually, dunno.

Sorry about your tooth mate, who yanked it out, Conan the Barbarian? I mean, sheesh, you can poke your mandible? That's just terrible business right there, you gotta be careful with that as nothing infects as easily as your jaw (guess mouth has something to do with it). ???

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 17, 2009, 07:52:51 PM
Sorry to hear about the "news leak" - there's always someone ready to capitalize (even if it's only for kudos) on someone elses hard work - and especially frustrating because it doesn't exactly represent the game in the best possible light (which it deserves), and like you say, it won't dissapear once the final game is out there.

Good thing the only person with a Psycho Pigs demo is Lobo....and I have my eyes on him ;)

Completely off-topic for this next bit;

I live in a big city - our capital to exact, and the part of the city I live in has been the site of a lot of shootings over the last year - for several months we had almost weekly shootings (daily for almost two weeks). Mostly immigrants and rockers battling it out among themselves, although innocents are also shot from time to time, but just as often burning cars and barricades in the streets. Not as nice a place as it once were.

Anyway, about 20 minutes ago I heard some noise down in the street, so I looked out the window. I saw a bunch of immigrants around a car - one of them with my bike in his hands.

So I put on my shoes...brought something else too, and rushed down the stairs to save my bike and to confront them. By this time my bike was laying in the middle of the street - in front of the car.

So, if you're wondering if, standing in front of 7-8 immigrants with a bat in your hand (yep, and not the flying kind) and calling them 'fucking immigrants' (which really woke them up) has any effect on your hearbeat, then the answer is "yes, yes it does". I makes you very nervous but also feelling very much alive.

Phew, I survived round 1 (of only 1 I hope). Perhaps I should put it in the locked yard from now on.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 08:01:15 PM
Ok, forgot this, blast it~


Sokurah, where do you live? I'm not so sure did I read Sweden or Norway or...Zimbabwe somewhere, so not so sure.
Be careful with that stuff though, most of the time you're dealing with desperate people and desperate people got nothing to loose. However, that does sounds quite bad, I live in Chicago and ...odd but besides destroying gang markings on my building (long ago though) I really have to say...no, I'll jinx it but you can imagine where I'm going with this.

Ok, some dude was robbed in my back alley at gunpoint several nights ago, about 15 minutes before I passed the same place (it was 2 AM) to go buy cigarettes at the nearby gas station. But it wasn't biggie, I think just friendly shakedown it was, so not bad.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 08:03:16 PM
Sokky,

Stick a couple of nails in the bat, and fucking use it!!! :) (I used to use a nice sledgehammer...)

Lobo..

I have moved the switch at the moment, and it does work well... Though it still is a bit too much like the platforms - colour wise.. I will send a demo soon and let you have a play.. Just trying to get the basics of level 13 working - then it is my turn to watch a film.. perhaps "antichrist"? Not sure..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 08:04:59 PM
Thanks Lobo,

Feel better already!!!!!!! :)

(must get THAT level done soon)

Rocky Rocks!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 17, 2009, 08:10:11 PM
Sokurah, where do you live? Be careful with that stuff though, most of the time you're dealing with desperate people and desperate people got nothing to loose.

I live in Copenhagen, Denmark.

Those morons weren't desperate - they're just bored and hanging out, doing stupid stuff and disrespecting other peoples property.
I doubt any of them were armed though (although half of them probably had knives but my bat had a bigger reach ;))

I can't not say something when I'm confronted with moronic behaviour, but nothing happened.
My bike was okay - just laying there but I would probably have busted a headlight if they'd done something to it.

...I wonder if this story is over.  :(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 17, 2009, 08:11:44 PM
Oh, btw, I haven't forgotten that I've promised to make a level. I have stared - just not completed anything spectacular yet. :D

Damn, one inspired level is hard enough - my utmost respect to any person who can crank out 64 levels in a few weeks. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 08:18:35 PM
Sokky,

Stick a couple of nails in the bat, and f**king use it!!! :) (I used to use a nice sledgehammer...)

While you're at it, wear the hockey mask and ripped pants, Jason style, nothing works better than a little bit of intimidation and growling. ;)

As for the switch, well if you moved it, Ok then, I can still make it lighter as in that pic though?
'Antichrist', I was thinking of the same thing the other night but went on to watch Maltese Falcon instead. Hmm..says Willem Dafoe is in that one, might check it out, maybe tonight.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 08:25:13 PM
moving or litgher, just it can been easier to spot, since I really unoticed it in first run (some sort of FX could do that if possible?). Rest of level is no problems for me. In Denmark the Gremling theme is mostly used in a television program with have book, comic, games etc reviews mostly for kids... I think that should been used, since its a great one.

I live in Denmark too (not far where Sokky live, but in a another town and have actuelly meet him once), and I got burned my 30km/t scooter last year where there was burning problem in a week or two. For few weeks ago some one tried to breaks lock on bikes in a train station (they was boring), but they diddent steal anything. I diddent do anything and could nothing.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 08:35:45 PM
'Antichrist', I was thinking of the same thing the other night but went on to watch Maltese Falcon instead. Hmm..says Willem Dafoe is in that one, might check it out, maybe tonight.


It is meant to be pretty good.. Hmmm... Think I may watch it... won't you join me!!  :-\
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 17, 2009, 08:46:52 PM
year!!! Volume evelopes now works pretty well in piano.xm :-D. Sound a much better after converting and saving using milky tracker. Only the toccata tune really need that feature too for a better release.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 08:48:05 PM
Yeah, bring the booze..Antichrist tonight.  :P

Forgot to quote~

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

Sorry, couldn't resist. :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on September 17, 2009, 10:05:25 PM
Wow, it gets better and betterer. :)  I love how your corpse and the gravestones will travel on the conveyer belts.

* Metropolis Bingo is fun but I struggle with the right part. Doable though.

* At the centre of the earth is fun. Semi-hard but not worse than many of the original MM levels. I like it.

* Wow, Eddie's Forrest looks so easy but, damn, it took me a lot of tries before I got it right.

* LOL @ A Deep Dark hole. If you've played HITMW you'll see some trademark Flash level design here. :-)

* The Channel Tunnel? Huh, so easy I can't help but ask "what's the catch?". There were none though - it was just a nice and easy one.

* HEY, now you can actually finish The Mystic Woods. "HEY GUYS - I'VE FINISHED HORACE IN THE MYSTIC WOODS!" ;)

* Aww, He slimed me looks fantastic. I love it. Not too hard...but DAMN @ that stupid red flower right before the exit...oh and that car-conveyer surprised me too. :)

* Love the Cassablanca screen. Brought a smile to my face. Took me a while to figure it out though and I got very tired of that short (and not well-fitting) tune.

* Love the Gremlins level too. That last Gizmo is a tough bugger though.

* What's with the three BTTF screens? - is there no way but to skip them?

* Have to stop at the Hellraiser level. I was supposed to have been to bed an hour ago. That's how much fun I had.

All in all, this is mostly about what I feel from playing the levels. Gameplay is fine and I encountered no bugs.


Btw, I'm using No@Gba v2.6 and I'm annoyed that I can't resize the screen. I'd like to run in 2x resolution. Can you reccomend me a better emulator?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 10:16:02 PM
Yeah, that Channel Tunnel is what got me as well, finished it from the first without even trying :D.

For the Emu, get Desmume, you can resize screen 4x with that.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 10:37:01 PM
Ps.

Channel Tunnel may be a little trickier when the enemies are added... LOL... Ha ha!! (tomorrow)


pps. It is just a lot easier to check all the collisions are correct without enemies to worry about..

The screens between Gremlins and Hellraiser are spacers ready for when someone comes up with a level... <flash whistles innocently>

 :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 17, 2009, 10:42:03 PM
Ps.

Channel Tunnel may be a little trickier when the enemies are added... LOL... Ha ha!! (tomorrow)

Aahh, crap, I knew there was a catch.  :D

The screens between Gremlins and Hellraiser are spacers ready for when someone comes up with a level... <flash whistles innocently>

Just you keep whistling, Slothy will be unleashed upon you soon, unless you comply.

Seriously though, the 'only' ones left now are~

Back to the future
Rocky Horror
Goonies

That's all, right? C'mon people! Let's start cranking these, just three layouts, a few solids, crumblers, a switch or CB here and there and we done with movies.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 17, 2009, 11:35:25 PM
I will do Rocky Horror...

Lobo, Were we still thinking of 1933's king kong??
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 12:47:31 AM
Excellent, then Goonies and BTTF left, maybe one for SF and the other one for Soky?  8)

Yes, we're doing King as well, that oughta be the last movie then, BW and all proper-whenever you're ready.  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 03:54:48 AM
I have idea for a level, but I guess it most suitable for a Terminator? Its use a lots of convolvers (not very far from a Mario Game & Watch game). Can you send me the Spectrum graphics so I can design the level in Paint Shop Pro as well the wide and heights of the screen used?

Casablanca, its the level where the tune toccata.xm got used? its can been sound better due it clicks very much. The theme is very jazzy (
), and found a midi file which sound nice, so I think I use that using patches from FL-Studio.

1933, King King? Somewhere a modicifed Donkey Kong like level?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 04:46:09 AM
We just need a layout, doesn't matter how it looks like as any movie theme can be applied to it. If you wanna go with Terminator than that's fine too.
I don't have a spectrum level but here's a template you can use if you follow these-
The size of the image is 256x152. However, you just need to draw the blocks inside the magenta area and leave that blue frame as it is. Bottom 8 pixels of the blue frame is used to store the animation for keys/conveyor belts and crumble blocks. The 8x8 blue sides on left and right are usually the walls so don't draw blocks inside the blue area.
Helps?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 04:48:05 AM
fine with me, its was that way I did when I designed levels for Cave Heroes (using 1x1 pixel per tile). I just work on the Casablanca tune today and whould been 8 channels this time and using a piano, bass and a string patches. A bit diffecent tune, if I have the correct movie (I have not seen that one).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 04:52:50 AM
Cool.....now get to work!  :D

Also, you don't have to have all these things, some levels don't have switches, others might not have plants/objects which can kill you on the platform. Some levels even don't have CBs, I think but since you're using them-go for it.
All I need, after you're done is to know what is what, that's why I drew the example with color pattern so you can tell what is supposed to be a black block or red, etc.
Also, don't forget to indicate Willy's starting position and the Exit position and you should be fine  ;).

Oh and don't forget to turn ON the grid (8x8) when working to easily snap the tiles together.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 05:01:39 AM
I  createing a level today and is just morning danish time, but I are soon to work soon. Ther only you forgot is roof like where you can fall down while moving forward. I do that with black with \ and / (if I need that). I PM you.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 05:07:04 AM
Roof? Like in the first level? Not so sure but go for it whatever you have in mind.  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 05:21:35 AM
I dosent need that on that level. I PM you very soon (before I got to work), but this one might require tweeks and also enemy. But its a start.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 18, 2009, 06:27:45 AM
I insist ...
(http://www.fotos.org/galeria/data/576/Movie-Poster-Young-Frankenstein.jpg)

;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 07:00:25 AM
What a classic film

 :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 18, 2009, 07:16:02 AM
EUREKA! ... now the .gz file decompression works with no need for hex edit and the uncompress() function returns OK! 8)

(I had to modify one line of code in zlib port... it works even if I don't know exactly why ;) lol :D )

Flash: going to send you a rar right now :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 07:23:56 AM
Ok mate... well done!! :)

We will have a test and see how much it saves and how quick it is!!

 :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 18, 2009, 08:05:15 AM
We will have a test and see how much it saves and how quick it is!!

There's a formula ;)

- WIth uncompressed XMs the required space in the NDS file and in memory is simply the sum of all XMs sizes. That's easy.
- With gzipped XMs the required space in the NDS file is the sum of all gzipped XMs sizes. That's approx. 65% of the original size.
- With gzipped XMs the required space in RAM it's the sum of the above point and the original size of the bigger XM (the size of the uncopression buffer we need to malloc).

Say we've got 10 XMs, each about 250 KB. That would require 2.5MB on NDS file and the same in RAM.
If we compress them we will need about 1,625MB on NDS file and about 1,875 MB in RAM.
This way it sounds convenient. But it won't be so if we have not so many files and/or if one of them it's really big.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 09:47:31 AM
they are now around 80-90kb each now after convertning to 8bit.... One tune need rework to been these 80-90 as well, since that one use to much memory.

Did you got the brief level Lobo? Of course that one need testing using Spectrum graphics and eventuelly tweek that before doing graphics to make sure it all works as it should. For the conveyor all should start been moving to the right as start points and all switches should reserve all conveyor at once (so its a push button).... So the top right key is the first to been collected.

Lobo, Please download the level again (just updated) from the link I have PM you (I is not sure your email), its same link (but have v2 on the picture).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 02:21:47 PM
Ok, I did get it. One thing I forgot to add is that you need to specify where the enemies are and their path (horizontal/vertical) and how many of them. This is for Flash, not me as he needs to know where to place them.  ;)
example
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 02:38:07 PM
I know and was aware of it, but first I want to test it without enemies first to make sure it possible and actuelly how hard it really is.

But I have just updated where the enemy can been (but no speed, that require testing, so up to Flash). Feel free to tweek it.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 02:52:13 PM
In order to test it out-send your layout to Flash with enemies position and I'll send him the actual level when it's drawn. That way he can see if they work and changes can be made quickly. As far as I can tell, the level you did works fine.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 02:53:06 PM
done
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 03:04:58 PM
Ok, got it...

I will see what I can do..

What is the level for? Ie.. which movie?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 03:08:50 PM
I guess Terminator or Short Circut (Number 5) I think?

Its really up to you, and also if you choice a third older robot movie.

I do not see so many movies, so I do not have many ideas.

Its should been a indoor level I think (like Back to Work level in style).

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 03:43:41 PM
It's for terminator, I've already sent the level to Flash so he can check it out and see how it works.
Should be fine methinks.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 04:44:03 PM
Working on Terminator now

Ok, the order of the movie levels and names/theme...

1 - Casablanca
2 - Gremlins
3 - Goonies
4 - Back to the Future
5 - Hellraiser
6 - Ghostbusters
7 - King Kong 1933
8 - Terminator
9 - Young Frankenstien - perhaps the dance number (dancing Hunchback etc) (song 'SF' - 'Puting on the Ritz' with a hint of MM ;) )
10 - Rock Horror Picture Show

Hope that helps... 10 is enough i believe?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 06:00:37 PM
9- Well, dude asked for Young Frankenstein so maybe that. I've seen it so long ago that I cannot remember if there's any specific memorable scene. If not, then he can choose some other movie.

Oh and 10 is enough, not accepting requests anymore, shop closed.  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 07:40:54 PM
Hmm..was that the one when he asks Igor for the brain and Igor says something like 'It belonged to some Abe Normal'?
 :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 07:54:29 PM
It was FULL of classic lines...

But, the music may be a good idea?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 07:56:03 PM
If these are the level themes we are going with... We need a story continuation...

Lobo, i tip my hat... LOL

(bet he is so regretting getting involved now)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 07:59:33 PM
Not all themes not been good using with MM, but its a unlock bonus, so....

Howover I got the Terminator theme mixed in with MM theme rather than use the orginale melody in the studio version (due it its minor chords)  ;D.

For some other movies I might use MM use MM theme in the verse rather than original movie theme....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 18, 2009, 08:00:34 PM
(bet he is so regretting getting involved now)

Sooo.....ooo.....  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 08:07:57 PM
Sooo.....ooo.....  :D

See, told ya!!!  :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 08:10:59 PM
Not all themes not been good using with MM, but its a unlock bonus, so....

Howover I got the Terminator theme mixed in with MM theme rather than use the orginale melody in the studio version (due it its minor chords)  ;D.

For some other movies I might use MM use MM theme in the verse rather than original movie theme....

I do think that the 10 movie levels each need a special theme really.. That would make them really special I believe mate...

Take Terminator for a starter.. The level is great and I nice thumping tune would be wonderful (based on the title music with a hint of MM?)

I think that would really make the level special... Took me ages to complete it btw.. ha ha...

ps. we have room for some more music - so - let's use it (if you want to SF....)

oh, demo in the mail for you...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 18, 2009, 08:21:06 PM
I think it should not auto reserve each sec (should do that ONCE or wait about 5 second), which can the level a bit harder than excepted. for the 3th key (the middle key to right) I think it should been added a solid block right for the key or much that switch a tile down? Nice graphics :-D.

Terminator: Just sent a xm of 16 and 8 bit versions and only use 4 samples.

Hellraiser: I found a midi theme of it, its look I have done that one as a The Detective ingame tune? I could use simular patches, but I think should slowdown version of this one (using a piano, string and a MMLL theme)?

Back to the Future: I gonna think not use the main theme, but a version of the song "Power of Love" which also used in the movie as well. I have fun idea how mix that one with MM theme in mind.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 18, 2009, 10:47:36 PM
Look forward to the tunes SF..

Will work on the switches tomorrow.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 19, 2009, 05:09:33 AM
I just thinking here to morning:

How about 2 levels for each movie (for better use of tunes and extend the levels a bit)? Some levels could been original spectrum levels as surprice).

I think on that way I would get better use of the tunes and the game would got around 35-40 levels which is fine and nice length for this game.

then 10 movies might not been needed, but around 6-7 movies?

So I need to do another level for my movie (Terminator) so (the current level, only that switch I think have that problem in middle right which is too hard).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 09:03:14 AM
No, I think we will stick with 10 films over 10 levels...

Poor lobo has enought on his plate.

BTW.. The Terminator level is quite easy the way it is (except the top left key) and there is a trick to get the one in the middle right - I like that ;)

We just need 10 tunes for the movie levels like you did with Terminator, mixed with the manic miner tune - sweet!!  ;D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 19, 2009, 09:57:25 AM
not all movie main themes choiced can been mixed with MM..... Hovover some songs using in scenes in movie might been used?

I doing that for verse in Power of Love (first song using 8 channels, due 4 of them using for organ chords) and it works like well in Terminator (6 channels).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 19, 2009, 11:00:57 AM
Just added support for zlib compressed xm's based on sverx's work. It has taken the final binary size from 2.05 MB to 1.42 MB which currently saves a cool 0.63 MB. The problem is some of the modules are corrupted and don't play back properly. I'm not sure why yet, but it could be because I gzipped the files using 7zip so they may need to be re-compressed using the official gzip tool.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 11:25:36 AM
Thanks HK....

I will have a play later and see if I can use the other zip proggy to do it... :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 19, 2009, 11:43:23 AM
In the credits screen, would been fine who made who (lobo = graphics, I = graphics) and I think Xm7Play should been in as well?

Third movie song sent to Flash. Hope corrupted songs got fixed in the compression.

Egyptian is still the biggest song filesize (and I still working on the another reggae song as second main MM song).

Nice work HeadKaze and Sverx (even it still some thing sort out).

He-he I got the trick on my own level :-D, actually not hard when first found it.

Found a control issue:

If conveyor moving to left and you going off it, he would still stay on that and turn right/left contantly without falling off, but if conveyor moving to the right, willy would fall. That cause the third key insanly hard to get and I only got it one times out of 10, due the bug. If hey stayed on the conveyor like when moving to the left, there would not been any issues in that level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 19, 2009, 12:06:42 PM
As I mentioned to Flash privately I don't want a full coder credit for this game because I've only done a minor coding part along with some code resused from Warhawk. I don't want to give people the wrong impression that we co-wrote the game when Flash has obvously spent a tonne more time on it. Unfortunately I think TDG may end up being along similar lines, but when we move to the iPhone I do hope the first game we do will be another co-production (of course I hope that Lobo and SF continue to work with us in the future too). We make a great team and I really enjoy working together on projects.

Flash has access to my source code so at least there is something that can be used as a learning tool as I think it's always easier to learn by example. But maybe you could do a small demo/experiment in C++ each week to start getting some practical experience?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 19, 2009, 12:18:22 PM
I went back to TDG soon, but its still early (I guess) and have movie music in focus correctly. Send me a mail with list, but would been easier with more gameplay. I can do 2-3 small jingles (or more if needed) as well for that game.

You  can allways get a thanks credits for the help or such that, which is not a full credits as well sverx (Xm7Play should been credited anyway, so we could have XM music).

I still not have a Iphone, and if I get it, its first next year. It mightbeen a IPod Touch instead, which I can use to test with..... But let see in the future which remake or game, it end with as first game....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 19, 2009, 01:29:52 PM
Can I make a graphical suggestion? When you start a level sometimes its a bit hard to see where you start from even with the spotlight effect. I think if there were some sort of bright yellow "teleportation waves" around the main character sprite when you start it would be clearer. Or perhaps a flashing red arrow? You could also have arrows pointing to the switches and stuff at the beginning so you know straight away where the important things in the level are.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 01:40:53 PM
I will give that a thought HK! That is an idea - It is easy for me because I know where we start on each level.. But a new player may find it tricky at times.

SF: Thanks for the bug report.. I will sort that (just a data error I believe mate)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 01:45:27 PM
HK...

I have compressed with -nv9 setting using gzip as Sverx suggested, and I get the same corruption? Hmmmm...
The first tune (dark.xm) does not sound right and reggae.xm have nasty clicks in it?

Any idea if there is some kind of leakage in the decompress? If the malloc enough?

Bugger!

EDIT:
I wonder if the buffer needs flushing or something?

Skipping to level 6 (dragon users...) causes corrupted music.. but setting start level to 6 in initgame.s and the levels music plays perfectly?

Does that help either Sverx or you HK?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 02:40:00 PM
Found it..

HK: you were passing r3 as the len of the xm in initlevel.s but not using it.

changing to this and it works?
Code: [Select]

ldr r0, =ZLibBuffer @ Uncompress module
@ ldr r1, =ZLibBufferLen
mov r1,r3, lsl #2

bl uncompress

Now, I am a bit of a dumbass, I know.. But.. Why does it make a difference? If I unpack lz'd tiles to vram, if i unpack more or less, the graphics that are uncompressed are not affected?

Wave a finger and call me dumb.... LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 19, 2009, 03:16:35 PM
When you unpack with lz77 the size of the data is stored in it's header. That's why you don't need to pass it's size.

As for zlib I have no idea why that code you posted works. I was following sverx's code so perhaps he is passing in the wrong value for the size parameter? I've made a demo based on his C code with all the MMLL songs and some of them fail to load just as in MMLL.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 03:22:27 PM
I have done a commit with the change and a new tune added for Casablanca level, this has a tiny glitch near the begining that is not present normally.

So, perhaps there is something eles???
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
The same tune in the demo that you have problems with is the one from level 6 i mentioned - something strange there?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 19, 2009, 04:06:49 PM
I'm pretty sure how I had the code in music.s is correct going by what I've read about the function

Quote
int uncompress (Bytef *dest, uLongf *destLen, const Bytef *source, uLong sourceLen);
Decompresses the source buffer into the destination buffer. sourceLen is the byte length of the source buffer. Upon entry, destLen is the total size of the destination buffer, which must be large enough to hold the entire uncompressed data. (The size of the uncompressed data must have been saved previously by the compressor and transmitted to the decompressor by some mechanism outside the scope of this compression library.) Upon exit, destLen is the actual size of the uncompressed buffer.
This function can be used to decompress a whole file at once if the input file is mmap'ed.

uncompress returns Z_OK if success, Z_MEM_ERROR if there was not enough memory, Z_BUF_ERROR if there was not enough room in the output buffer, or Z_DATA_ERROR if the input data was corrupted.

I think sverx is right I think there is a bug in the zlib port because without the change to the following

Code: [Select]
if ((state->wrap & 2) && hold == 0x8b1f) {  /* gzip header */
to

Code: [Select]
if (hold == 0x8b1f) {  /* gzip header */
But that line of code is in the offical source so there must be some introduced bug in the port.

EDIT: Reading more of sverx's posts about this it seems like it might be a problem with the "stream header".
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 19, 2009, 04:10:00 PM
HeadKaze came to release tunes into this forum, but is removed, even it was not that chase, but just trying to fix a problem with the uncompress rutine.

Tunes is still not credited using intrument names and the game is not officiel, so I want using email as media when passing thing (unless it officiel). Its ok doing with one or two tunes (piano peices example).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 19, 2009, 10:21:09 PM
New we have compressed all songs, since some songs was only 30-45 secs and might been short. I extend them to been around 1:00 -> 1:30 for most song. This is simply due the nature of the original short song. Of course the spectrum.xm is the shortest now. Its was not dedicated to do a full album for the game, but good short length tunes and looping so seamless as possible. But I know some tunes might require to been longer..... But for me most important its get all tunes done before polishing for now (I have still 7 movies left to do, and I are still not sure which themes should been used for all movies).

I also think 4MB is not required all to been used, as long the game is good as it are, even 2-3MB is more than fine and this is just meant a quality work for so much content on small file. That just mean its should work on more cards, so it doesn't have the memory problem Warkhawk did on launch.

Due the fact, I think SAM Coupé version (these extra 40 levels, minus these used in the Lost Levels) could been added as a bonus using the SAM Coupé graphics and the jump style of it (if it use different jump style) as a unlockable bonus (if we have the time also)? That version seen very exclusive port, but can been done after all levels is finished and there is time left.... A surprise bonus.

A another idea is a "show other games" and using a slideshow of "The Detective" as well "warhawk" (and the other way for TDG as well)? There is memory room for doing that.


Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 19, 2009, 10:32:42 PM
I do think that to add all the glitz to the 30 levels that I already have is going to take a while, and I really do want it out by Christmas LOL...

So, perhaps using original graphics and normal music, there is a chance..

But.. I am a bit bogged down with it at the moment, and I have a Jaw that I REALLY want to rip out and burn... So.. Er.. Will see how we get on.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 19, 2009, 10:49:17 PM
the sam version seen to have nice improved graphics, so that could been a little bonus. How do the level designed technical and format? But its something second priotering and not required to look on.

Sad about jaw  :'(.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 20, 2009, 03:13:11 AM
It would be the best to stick to original plan-20 LL and 10 movies as a bonus (plus horace somewhere in between) :D.
This alone is taking a while already so let's just do these as best as possible.

Btw, watched YF last night, hehe, yeah still funny~
"Alo, my name's inga would you like to have rollin in ze hay? "

 :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 20, 2009, 11:03:24 AM
I just played Sam Coupe version of it (even I never have or heard about that machine), its a bloody nice version of Miner Manic. Its only suffer from some collision issues. I even like the aggressive music, so I think should do another similar tune (or a least just for fun)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 20, 2009, 08:09:14 PM
I've read only now your posts, I wasn't online the all weekend...

Well, I do not understand what's wrong, actually, but I think that after that 'correction' (lol...) to the zlib port everything should work fine. If you can play the XM with no problems then you also should be able to compress it with gzip and uncompress it at run time using zlib uncompress() function. The size parameter you should provide to this function is NOT the expected size of the decompressed XM, but the size of the decompression buffer.
Then, when the function returns, it gives a return code (this MUST be ZERO otherwise it means the file is damaged) and it also sets the size parameter to the size of the uncompressed XM... this value is not interesting at all to us.
Finally, libXM7 XM loading function will load the tune from this decompression buffer.
That's it... you just have to make sure that your decompression buffer (which I think you'll malloc() in the very beginning and never ever free in your code) is big enough to hold the biggest XM in our set.

If you've got a chance to send me a beta so that I also can check it, probably I can help a little more :)

Now heading to bed, read you tomorrow.

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 20, 2009, 08:22:07 PM
I believe this have been fixed and the newest beta seen all works and dident have problems with out of sync tunes.

Hop going with your jaw? Even you need a break from the game, I would still doing the tunes finished, since I belive Im are little bit behind. I diddent have time to work on XM version of GB tune, but let see I can doing more tunes tomorrow.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 21, 2009, 05:35:01 AM
I just realized I have misplayed 3 notes of most of the MMLL theme songs which was different from the spectrum. That mean I need to update the songs and mightbeen the youtube vdeo. I send later today with fixed songs.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 21, 2009, 07:39:44 AM
If you've got a chance to send me a beta so that I also can check it, probably I can help a little more :)

There seems to be a corruption issue after decompressing a few songs and Flash's "fix" is really a hack to make the decompressor think the size of the buffer is 4 times the compressed data size. But it might be a clue as to why it's not working the first place. Anyway I will send you the demo with all the songs (SF asked us to remove the post of the code here because of his music included). Err, can you PM me your e-mail address?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 21, 2009, 07:50:16 AM
Err, can you PM me your e-mail address?

Done. Btw I'm really curious about that corruption. Maybe there are other strange bugs in the zlib code?
I also think that "make the decompressor think the size of the buffer is 4 times the compressed data size" can just expose you to the risk of overflowing the buffer :| The size of the buffer shouldn't be related to the compressed data size at all...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 21, 2009, 08:00:19 AM
I got the Terminator theme mixed in with MM theme [...]

That made "You could be MINER" tune :D :D :D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 21, 2009, 08:50:12 AM
Okay I finally realised why the music is getting corrupted in MMLL!!! And I feel like a bit of an idiot about it actually hehe. But anyway it does explain why Flash's "fix" (which is still wrong but I will fix it in a minute) works. But next time instead of posting the documentation that explains how it works I should bloody read it properly myself.

This is the part that screwed up my code:

Code: [Select]
Upon exit, destLen is the actual size of the uncompressed buffer.
Can you guess what went wrong yet? That's right I placed the size of the buffer into a variable at the start but everytime it loaded a module it would write over it with the actual size of teh uncompressed buffer. So after a smaller sized module is loaded it starts thinking the buffer is too small and fails.

Still the curious thing is we still need sverx's fix for it decompress at all. That is in the official release of zlib so I have no idea what that is all about.

Okay just did a commit with the fix to music.s and all works perfect now :) One thing though Flash I don't know if you notice this but when you die just after the spotlight effect finishes the sprite of the main character moves right a pixel. Hmmm strange?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 21, 2009, 09:01:16 AM
Can you guess what went wrong yet? That's right I placed the size of the buffer into a variable at the start but everytime it loaded a module it would write over it with the actual size of teh uncompressed buffer. So after a smaller sized module is loaded it starts thinking the buffer is too small and fails.

That's exactly what I was thinking mate :P Btw it's good we know now that this zlib+libXM7 system actually works fine, so we can be confident with that :)

Said that, I'd love to receive the current beta anyway :)

One last question for SpaceFractal: are you using MilkyTracker to save the final version of the XMs or not? Because that problem with SkaleTracker is still in the 1.00 version of libXM7 and won't go away before next library release...

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 21, 2009, 09:05:20 AM
Said that, I'd love to receive the current beta anyway :)

I was actually going to send you a demo showing the music problem based on your xm7 example anyway. I will leave Flash to send you the latest beta of MMLL.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 21, 2009, 09:08:46 AM
I was actually going to send you a demo showing the music problem based on your xm7 example anyway. I will leave Flash to send you the latest beta of MMLL.

Perfect :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 21, 2009, 09:34:56 AM
One last question for SpaceFractal: are you using MilkyTracker to save the final version of the XMs or not? Because that problem with SkaleTracker is still in the 1.00 version of libXM7 and won't go away before next library release...

Yes, its saved by MilkyTracker in the end (and using the same software to convert samples to 8 bit, while I using 16 bit versions under creation)...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 21, 2009, 08:20:40 PM
Im are not sure themes or songs for all movies, i have these left. I got Ghostbusters finished today.

2 - Gremlins
 I do that one as next movie song.

3 - Goonies
 Not sure yet (but have midi, but still not sure about style, or somewhere song from movie being used instead, but which?)

5 - Hellraiser
 Not sure

7 - King Kong 1933
 Note sure, mightbeen somewhere that midi file posted here? Its a old movie, so should sound like that.

9 - Young Frankenstien - perhaps the dance number (dancing Hunchback etc) (song 'SF' - 'Puting on the Ritz' with a hint of MM  )
 Its a jazzy song, found a midi. I like to see the style of the level first.

10 - Rock Horror Picture Show
 Not sure

PS. "crappy" forum software which delete post if wrong attachment extension... grrr
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 21, 2009, 08:52:04 PM
King Kong tune sounds cool, the original score was just crescendo one after another but this can be used quite well.

Goonies, whatever midi you got, maybe post it so we hear. I have the original soundtrack though, besides Cyndi Lauper song, it's more or less 'moody' as expected.

Hellraiser..hehe, whatever horror you got there should do.

YF - not so sure, dance number sounds good but I've no idea how the level would look like. I was thinking of either Lab scene (well, classic) or the dance scene but I'm using a dance scene in Rocky Horror Show so Lab is more likely. Again, can't tell cause I'll let someone design the actual level first. 8)

Rocky picture-Well..got soundtrack for this one too..what can I say, if you can hear maybe on youtube or someplace, stuff like 'TimeWarp' would be the best.  :D

Btw, I'm doing the Goonies level so all that's left from movies is Back to the future and Young Frankie. Flash has finished King Kong (looks swell) and he'll do the Rocky Horror so some of you boys should split those two left.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 21, 2009, 09:21:27 PM
look like Im little behind, I think I need 2 weeks to do finish all tunes..... I hope that ok. But I known there is still room for polishing and testing.

I also really want to do a least loosy themes (or songs used in the movies) of the movies.

I gonna think and did a FL-Studio version of Hellraiser which only using background noise and no main melody. Its the only level without real music.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 22, 2009, 07:20:00 AM
saved by MilkyTracker in the end (and using the same software to convert samples to 8 bit, while I using 16 bit versions under creation)

Good :) Yes, I think you can keep on using your favourite tracker until you're satisfied with your results, optimize in the end. Btw, did you read the section "Getting the most of your tune" on libXM7 page? There are some 'little tricks' to make your XMs play perfectly on the DS:

In short (for 8 bits samples):
Quote
- Length of samples without loop should be multiple of 4.
- The length of the non-repeating part of samples with loops (of any kind) and the length of the repeating part of samples with forward loops should be as stated above.
- Length of the repeating part of 8 bits samples with ping-pong loops should be even.

Anyway I would check only those samples not playing perfectly (do some samples sound detuned? crackling?) and just forget the others :)

Bye!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 22, 2009, 07:31:17 AM
7 - King Kong 1933
 Note sure, mightbeen somewhere that midi file posted here? Its a old movie, so should sound like that.

The Kong tune sounds good mate.. That would be a good basis for the full xm
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 22, 2009, 10:49:33 AM
I see most of them is really horror and/or someone monster movies, so I think should been more variered (I think)? 2001 example, but there is many space levels as well.

1 - Casablanca <-finished.
2 - Gremlins <-missing tune, but looking into this.
3 - Goonies <- only kid movie choiced and pretty a good one, just need the music theme fitted in.
4 - Back to the Future - missing level (I got designed a level for this one).
5 - Hellraiser <- missing tune. Its would been a SFX only tune without music.
6 - Ghostbusters <- finished.
7 - King Kong 1933 <- nice level (not tested much, but do the abe moving he hands to fast?). Tune still missing and doing using the midi as base.
8 - Terminator <- finished.
9 - Young Frankenstien <- Not sure should been used? Music would propenty do simular like Casablanca did.
10 - Rock Horror Picture Show <- Not sure should been used? Howover the movie contain much music, so one tune could been used, so which one. The TimeWarp is a nice idea to do a rocky MM theme.

to been honest 8 movie levels would been pretty fine as well.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 22, 2009, 11:09:31 AM
The Young Frankenstein level really has to be "puting on the Ritz" :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 22, 2009, 11:57:11 AM
To been sad, its not a easy song to convert, due the original use a lots of samples, drums etc and simply cant fit the memory used without sound to empty or bad.... and in my option its simply not really Manic Miner, even its a good song. Jazz using synth is not the best idea to doing this. Its need jazz instruments.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 22, 2009, 12:41:41 PM
some how, it really does have to have "puting on the ritz" in it..

Perhaps MM jingle then the notes of "puting on the ritz" (where they sing the words) at the end of the segment
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 22, 2009, 01:44:11 PM
its cant been mix major and minor in same time. May look into that later. Howover I send you mp3 preview of the horror bgs and gremlings (a slowdown version of it) to you soon, so I get these two finished first.

PS. some bass and drums added after emailed you gremlings preview, but you got the idea of the style (which now sound a bit more upbeat).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 22, 2009, 08:19:31 PM
1 - Casablanca <-finished.
2 - Gremlins <-missing tune, but looking into this.
3 - Goonies <- only kid movie choiced and pretty a good one, just need the music theme fitted in.
4 - Back to the Future - missing level (I got designed a level for this one).
5 - Hellraiser <- missing tune. Its would been a SFX only tune without music.
6 - Ghostbusters <- finished.
7 - King Kong 1933 <- nice level (not tested much, but do the abe moving he hands to fast?). Tune still missing and doing using the midi as base.
8 - Terminator <- finished.
9 - Young Frankenstien <- Not sure should been used? Music would propenty do simular like Casablanca did.
10 - Rock Horror Picture Show <- Not sure should been used? Howover the movie contain much music, so one tune could been used, so which one. The TimeWarp is a nice idea to do a rocky MM theme.

For gremlins, maybe something like this~  gremlins (http://www.ekn.net/midi/TV_Movie/movie/gremlins.mid)
Goonies - goonies (http://www.cool-midi.com/midi/c/cindy_lauper-goonies_r_good_enough.mid?PHPSESSID=86aea56674eade9691cf79f213fcea57)
Rocky Horror ~  rocky timewarp (http://www.kfs.org/~oliver/music/midi/rocky_horror-time_warp.mid)

That Rocky sample is quite cool methinks (adjust to the left) ;).

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 22, 2009, 08:28:31 PM
Back to the future - power of love (http://moviethemes.net/music/B/Back_To_The_Future__Power_Of_Love.mid)

Hellraiser - hrtheme (http://pages.prodigy.net/area512/hellraiser.mid)

Still not so sure about the actual YF level as in where its supposed to be, thinking lab is better than the podium as we already have podium planned for Rocky?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 22, 2009, 08:40:43 PM
I have designed level to Back to the future, but is not in game, hence I wrote level missing. The tune is finished. You can listen to that tune on one of the missing level in the demo.

Goonies have i just used the intro into a longer peice, and gremling got a slowdown theme of it. I finsish studio versions of it.

For Rock Horror Picture Show Flash asked "I-M Going Home", which I seen suit better due the last level.... Nice piece and should been easy to do. I might trying do both tunes. I do not have good guitar sounds yet.

I could do Casablanca like piano tune with a organ chords as orignally planned for YF (might use 10 channels due many jazzy chords, so I hope it use less than the egyptian tune).

King Kong to been planned.... Nice a little bit easy level and only took me few tries.

Hellraiser ... see can fit that on the bg SFX as well.


Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 22, 2009, 08:58:20 PM
You're done with BTTF level? Send it over then.
'I'm going home' you say? Not bad, gonna make a few people cry though <coughflashcough>.
 :D

Well, for Casablanca-this would be perfect as it is the tune from the movie - as time goes by (http://www.jadierose.com/timegoesby.mid)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 22, 2009, 09:06:15 PM
this is a variation of the tune allready in the level... mightbeen piano only tunes is normally easy to convert, but later on. Need to finish other movies first so they have a tune.

I have not your email? Flash have got the level. Its a another city level.
lol I did not seen that email on your profile, I normally not do that due spam. Send you very soon, so you have some work.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 22, 2009, 09:20:09 PM
Righty, where do you think I get all the spam from  :D.
Got your level so I'm gonna look into it, cheers!

EDIT: You forgot to specify the starting position, else is Ok.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 23, 2009, 05:08:28 AM
I known. he start at bottom, I was going to bad and have turned power down. Its was orinally planned to use moving hoverboard platform, but Flash wont change gameplay thing, so I changed it to use cruncing platforms instead. Hince the double wide enemy (which originally was the moving platform).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 23, 2009, 05:47:44 AM
You mean bottom left? That would make sense, well it's for Flash to know anyway. He said he'll look into the level and let me know how it works so I can draw stuff for it. It's very busy and tricky one though, I hope it works as it looks interesting.
I do agree about not changing gameplay mechanics though, especially not for just one level that can be probably finished in matter of minutes. Basically, all these levels were not really meant to 'follow' literally the movies they're in, just regular levels which can be skinned with pretty much any theme without loosing consistency in what people expect from controls and gameplay aspects. For that reason, some of the LL levels had to be modified in order to fit the game, not the other way around (Eddie's forest for example) and I think it's for the better.

So, with that level in there and Rocky coming from Flash, all that's left is Young Frankenstein and the 4 LL levels, I believe. Not bad.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 23, 2009, 09:18:52 AM
yes and exit is on top right.

The middle screen might need change if too tricky or might been the middle enemy only been one instead of two and even some crunching platform can been replaced with solid blocks. Its propenty here its can been very tricky, and I guess not inside buildings. I hope it can been completed witheen airtime.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 23, 2009, 10:51:33 AM
I have got the level in, and it is possible.

I have changed a few little things to balance it out a bit and it could look really good. I will send it to Lobo this evening.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 23, 2009, 12:27:45 PM
nice. Balancing is important. I have not tested levels, only designed it as I think.

A new goonies is sent per email (that one got finished first in XM and not started on XM versions of other 2 songs you got mp3 versiosn yet). Hope you like that one.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 23, 2009, 01:48:00 PM
Ideas for polishing:

- Hiscore support (even original did not have it, it need such of one) with score, level and time on each place.
- Possible to practice a level from any level you have unlocked doing gameplay (I believe there is no start level point this time).
- Mightbeen a extra life on each level complete or by score (but allways have 3 as maximum I think).
- Music Selection Screen to play tunes you allready have heard from regular gameplay (these tunes being unlocked over time).
- Credits screen and hiscore screens can been used in the screen between level slideshow.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 23, 2009, 01:53:50 PM
They are good ideas..

Not sure about a highscore table? Perhaps?

I like the jukebox idea.

Not sure what to do abould continues at the moment? Do we return to level 1 or can we replay the last level?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 23, 2009, 02:46:35 PM
I don't gonna think about continues in this game.

Some Miner games does have extra lives bassed on score or such (saw a 1997 version of it, that did that).

The Practice idea is so you can practice on later levels, but ONLY on these levels you have played on and not all levels from the start and after the level end, the game should just go back to title. Just a idea not seen in a MM game.

There is score in the game, so why not use that better? You have a slideshow feature in the title screen, two of these screen can been used seamless to a credits as well hiscore.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 23, 2009, 10:21:50 PM
Hiscore might work like that, maybe show it against the bkg (the same which can be used for credits?) while the menu thing loops?
Btw, while we're at credits, I assume you'll write the text, so you need just one background for that?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 23, 2009, 10:43:18 PM
I will sort out credit ideas soon...

These will be on the top screen between the level demos.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 23, 2009, 11:37:33 PM
its what I meant for both credits as well hiscore. Do mightbeen not really need for connection directly. Its a a slideshow of demos of level, but can been used with other screens.

Also if you swap screen, its still swapped in the title which I guess should been not. I prefer level demo's and the titlescreen on top, but acutely gameplay its should been that screen the user want.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 24, 2009, 06:47:06 AM
I've been checking the latest demo with a couple of friends and we focused mainly on music, here's what came out:
- Title screen tune is somehow at a "lower level" than the other tunes. I don't know if it's done on purpose (to sound childish for instance?) but I personally think its level should be raised somehow. It's the first tune the player hear when he starts the game, do we really want him to have a bad impression? (click start and compare it with the quality of the tune of the first level...)
- Terminator tune's volume is too low. I know there's some atmosphere in it, but it's a big step from the previous level volume.
- Some samples here and there are a little bit 'noisy'. Minor problem, though, but if you've got a change to fix them we'll have a perfect result. :)

Of course SF you're doing a great work and I want to state it clearly. I love the tunes very much :)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 24, 2009, 07:38:40 AM
All samples is 8 bit and hence some samples can been noisy, but its really a minor problem and only noticeable on some songs and when few instruments is used. I can see what I can do, and yes its a really a minor problem and not all would notice that. 16 bit samples have not that problem, but might do on DS as well when played at 10bit anyway, but if there is example 1MB memory left we can use 16 bit versions of some of the problem songs, even we need raise the buffer.

Title and Terminator tunes got raised the volume on samples and send them to Flash when more tunes is done.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 24, 2009, 08:00:19 AM
All samples is 8 bit and hence some samples can been noisy, but its really a minor problem and only noticeable on some songs and when few instruments is used.

I think the problem with some samples it's that maybe sample frequency is too low. And some have some little 'click', just check that the beginning and the ending of the samples is close enough to the zero...

... btw again, it's a minor problem. It's that I'm quite a perfectionist :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 24, 2009, 08:25:39 AM
All samples is 16 bit 22kHz mono (except few samples in one song which used 16bit 16kHz, not remember which one it was, its might have been in the scrapped miner8.xm? Its was one of the first tunes) originally and then converted to 8 bit by Milky Tracker.

I do fix eventually click problems, most noticeable in dark.xm and egyptian.xm.

Found some bugs:
- In the Goonies level, there is a crunching Block shown as a solid platform just after you jumped up the ladder (after the 3th key).
- In Back in the Future level, there is a hidden crunching block as I wrote to you, Flash.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 24, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
Found some bugs:
- In the Goonies level, there is a crunching Block shown as a solid platform just after you jumped up the ladder (after the 3th key).
- In Back in the Future level, there is a hidden crunching block as I wrote to you, Flash.

Well spotted mate, I am so glad you are on the Beta team.. It is hard when you are coding as you never really find the time to check everything. Little things like that are easy to miss when your mind is on other things - thanks!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 24, 2009, 07:55:39 PM
sverx, wasn't that hunch...on your right side? Ah, nevermind, maybe you can prove me wrong by designing the YF level? :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 24, 2009, 08:03:47 PM
Would been neat if sverx designed a level too for the movie he choiced (like I designed the Terminator for the movie I choiced)?

The song is allready finished and is only in 58kb and became really cool little song, and hope the graphics match the song and instruments.

The level for Back to the Future was a bit darker than I excepted when I created a very bright song, so I think the elpiano was a bit too bright, but rest seen still fine. Very diffecent graphics than I excepted, but I do like it and the tweek is nice too and accepted that.

For the music part I have only 3 movie left to create song for: Gremlings (missing XM, but have studio and the idea), Rock Horror Picture Show and King Kong. Flash I think you should email him the song?

I might do a Lost Level tune or two more and some jingles? I do want the movie songs finished first.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 24, 2009, 08:08:26 PM
BTTF got me surprised with indoor/outdoor at the same time. The only thing that would fit was that barn from the first part. Unfortunately, a lots of stuff is happening in there (crumble blocks) so I had to minimize the background in order to 'clear' the situation. At many times, the way the blocks are arranged have direct impact on how the level will look like and might completely change the idea of the background. As for the animated flag, that can be done, it's up to flash.  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 24, 2009, 08:10:40 PM
It was orignalled planned to been use a scene in 2015 with the 80' cafe seen in the Back to the Future II. That why the fire should been water. (sorry I edited the post, but it give same mean anyway and no missed).


possible to play with cheatmode, but with the limited airtime (to better test levels can been done befiore it run out)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 24, 2009, 08:44:18 PM
Ah, I see. The idea on my side was to have the clock tower and the streets/shops around, probably in daylight and a car of course but again, design of the levels changes many things.  ;)

Btw, Flash, those last three LL levels are mental, can't finish that no way.
Example- the end, is there a switch maybe to the left, close to the wall? If I drop down where the CB is, no way to jump over the enemy and how in heck am I supposed to get through that hole in the wall?

The final barrier seems doable but can't pick up that key to the left off of those two plants, anyone??
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 24, 2009, 08:53:58 PM
I checks these levels tomorrow, its bed time now, due I need to early work tomorrow (its 23:54 here).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 24, 2009, 09:34:35 PM
Yeah Sverx!!! Get to it!!

I want it YESTERDAY!!! LOL

(Anything you need to help - pm me? I can even add a few things, If you are interested? ? ? ?)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 24, 2009, 11:55:48 PM
Nonononono, you're doing it wrong. What's today...lemmesee...Thursday, good.

Sverx..you have until Friday.

G' luck.

Btw..is there maybe some difference in speed or something with collision in level19 (the original version I mean)?
Those two bottom 'flowers' that I've mentioned (lower right, right off the key) are impossible. If you drop from the above, you touch them and die, if you try to jump over them, either from the right or from the block you hit the wall to the left and fall straight on one of them (die). Seems impossible. Either something with collision to be made (eg, don't hit the wall while jumping) or complete removal of the 'flowery' on the left (closest to the key).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 25, 2009, 04:01:28 AM
The End - Hard but got completed that.

I agree with the "the final? Barrier" is evil and impossible. You can not get either the top key or the key at the bottom? I could only got the left and the right key which is both possible.
I trying the final level later.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 25, 2009, 05:52:25 AM
Btw..is there maybe some difference in speed or something with collision in level19 (the original version I mean)?
Those two bottom 'flowers' that I've mentioned (lower right, right off the key) are impossible. If you drop from the above, you touch them and die, if you try to jump over them, either from the right or from the block you hit the wall to the left and fall straight on one of them (die). Seems impossible. Either something with collision to be made (eg, don't hit the wall while jumping) or complete removal of the 'flowery' on the left (closest to the key).
It is exactly the same in the original... I cannot get it there, the jump and detection are the same? I wonder if it is a false collectable - ie. you cant collect it, and you don't need it to clear the level?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 25, 2009, 06:31:59 AM
Right yesterday I was thinking I could try to design a level... I'll do it this weekend. btw I can't promise anything, it's a thing I've never done before and I still don't know how I'll be able to do it.

Quote from: Flash
(Anything you need to help - pm me? I can even add a few things, If you are interested? ? ? ?)

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean :|

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 25, 2009, 06:33:52 AM
I was just saying,

If there was anything special in the level, let me know first and I will see if I can add it? I was thinking that Frank's Monster should be 2 sprites high LOL (as an enemy)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 25, 2009, 06:36:05 AM
If there was anything special in the level, let me know first

Ok, but I don't have any special idea at the moment... but yours sounds good :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 25, 2009, 06:42:16 AM
Ok..

We now have all 20 'lost levels' intact and working.. (though the last 2 no-one can finish - even on the original, so some tweaking may be needed)

(http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/BetaT01.png)   (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/BetaT02.png)   (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/BetaT03.png)

(http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/BetaT04.png)   (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/BetaT05.png)   (http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/BetaT06.png)

So, other than the 2 bonus levels, the actual game is complete.

Next job is to tidy things up? Ie. game over, highscore, title credits, secrets, more effects, etc.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 25, 2009, 07:47:45 AM
IT... CAN... WORK!!!  :D :D :D [
@ 9:56]

Sent a draft of the level to Flash. He asked for something special so don't blame me ;)

btw I do think it'll be another black and white level, of course in a different way from the one already in.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 25, 2009, 09:40:17 AM
In the This is the Last Carven is not possible to get the top right key. Due bad start position of the top (or next top), they are not aligned in time to complete the level. I guess the top monster need to been reposition or such, or possible to stay top right without catch?

I have still not played with airtime, so I want a cheat mode with unlimited airtime, but does not effect airtime.

for the "The Final? Barrier" I think let the problem key been a fake one have story about that? Rest seen possible, but not with enabled airtime.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 25, 2009, 09:45:34 AM
It is exactly the same as the original, and I cannot do that one either lol. Perhaps if the top monster does not go quite so far right would help?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 25, 2009, 10:01:42 AM
I saw a 1997 version, but which format was this one for?


Its contain a very similar level (as last level), but the toppart is removed completely.

If top monster turn before reach the right wall, the level should been possible. I did died there as well. Rest seen possible and not directly hard (but require near perfect jump over the buttom monster, but possible (with the original graphics).

Any plans for the deadline? 1 november mightbeen (so it can been completly tested in next month as well)? I still a little bit behind.

I still want a version with normal airtime but with unlimited lives (so levels can been tested in correct way).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 25, 2009, 12:58:40 PM
Seems that the Final Barrier is the only one not working well so either make the key false or better, I can just remove the spike close to the key. It sounds more logical as people will probably want to pick that one up and keep dying without knowing that it is a dummy.
Also, the last level is quite damn hard, whoever finishes that is a loony.  :D
The YF level, I guess double sprite size sounds good, for Frankie anyway, the level though might be designed around the lab where you can use switches and effects like electric charges and such in glorious B&W.
Would be cool if possible to do the bookcase roll (like that secret room thing in the movie) with a switch or temporary do something to Frankie. ;)

For the rest, I think one credits screen, one hiscore or even shared with credits, it has to be simple so the text is readable and Victory screen (we have game over already) is all that's left?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 25, 2009, 01:20:37 PM
then I think peole should read the story about the fake key.....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 25, 2009, 01:26:02 PM
then I think peole should read the story about the fake key...

...sounds like I've missed something  ???

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 25, 2009, 01:36:56 PM
...sounds like I've missed something  ???



No, it is just in one of the last levels, there is a key that is impossible to collect (even in the original) and we think the level has one more key than you need.

I will modify that level later, if I get time (work is a bit mad at the moment)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 25, 2009, 02:26:58 PM
I've missed that part as well, actually never heard of it. However, if that's the case than you don't need to modify anything, just use it as it is (and let people massively die until they figure it out).  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 25, 2009, 07:10:22 PM
then the game is not funny. I want all levels possible, even it need to do very few changes.

For the last two levels, the bottom key is the problem and the top monster in the final level is a problem if you ask me.

I also checkout TDG this weekend (sorry headkaze).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 25, 2009, 07:18:13 PM
then the game is not funny. I want all levels possible, even it need to do very few changes.

For the last two levels, the bottom key is the problem and the top monster in the final level is a problem if you ask me.

I also checkout TDG this weekend (sorry headkaze).

The final level is possible without moving the top monster, if you sit an wait 3 passes of the monster.. So, I have changed the monster so that it starts in a different place. The level is now possible (but fucking hard) and the top monster still goes to the end, as in the original.

Level 19, the bottom key is still there (i want them all collectable) but the spike is removed (good idea lobo)


I will send a demo to all in a while - have not had much time today, but just wanted to finish the effects for the last level before sending beta's
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 25, 2009, 07:28:08 PM
I havent have the time to done music today, so that might need to next week wirg the missing music. Youl could move one of the spike as well.

I doubt how the levels is with airtime (never do that, since you can jump levels without cheat mode and wont play to the end to test)? BBC version might have a longer airtime mightbeen? This a very long wait time for the top monster and is actuelly possible (howover still not completed the level, but got all keys).

Sometimes moving to a diffecent start points can been fine as well, just like the top witch. I think the top monster only require to move 20-30 pixels (2 or 3 tiles) to the right, if you get the keys in a diffecent orders (spoilers):

Take one key at the bottom first (while jump over the monster), then take the 2 to the right, and take rest 2 keys at the bottom, and then these 3 keys at top).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 25, 2009, 07:44:09 PM
Ugh, got me so confused with this 'possible/impossible' key business...jeeez already.  :D
Well, anyway, when you guys are done with those two left, lemme know, gotta test some TDG now as it got a bunch of stuff in there waiting.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 25, 2009, 07:54:10 PM
I still need testing TDG (that game howover have not have so much music as MMLL and is not really required, so only few more jingles is needed), but I do that in this weekend, and eventuelly fix problems with the music and adding some Exx effect to control ligtning (so you can use it if you want, or not).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 26, 2009, 11:14:42 PM
Just grew meself a hump working on the YF level but it's done-RPHS is the last one left...just as it should be. After that is done, Flash will make a video of himself dressed up like Tim Curry while singing 'Super Heroes' cause it's only appropriate to celebrate the occasion that way.  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 28, 2009, 07:46:27 AM
Just grew meself a hump working on the YF level but it's done

Can't wait too see it! :) I mean the level, not the hump of course...  :D :D :D

edit: Man, it's amazing! :) Now I'm trying to solve it, not an easy task though!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 28, 2009, 12:51:39 PM
there is still tunes missing in various LL levels? First I need these last 2 movies done this week. Have been looked a bit on TDG last time.

I got myself a DS, but still need a backup card to play these game here.....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 28, 2009, 01:04:15 PM
I got myself a DS

Good, you really need to hear how your tunes sounds there (you know, the quality of the speakers...).
Get an R4 or an AceKard. You got a DS Lite, uh?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 28, 2009, 01:23:28 PM
Yes its s Lite one (due its was around half in price compared to the new DSi), but they only have turkis and green to that cheap price, so I choiced green one.

Hey, I like the Picture to the Radio show. I think I need some transmission noise while playing a lossy song based on Going Home.

I hope most cliks issues on various songs got fixed....

The Lite have a jackphone, and I normally allways use headphones, but I would like to heard on that speacker too. Would not last many days to get a backup card (to play homebrew games of course).

NB. seen like the danish shop, mm-vision.dk "only" have DS TT cards for DS and is R4i only for DSi or can been used on the lite to?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 28, 2009, 04:49:06 PM
Don't use the DSi cards on DSlite, there's a plenty of DS cards out there and it doesn't cost you much to wait if it's sold outside your country.
Dunno about DS TT card, it's a 'toptoy' card by Neoflash and seems it works fine (and it supports SDHC as well) but I would really recommend going for AK2/RPG or R4, maybe even Cyclo. The closest to you might be UK sellers?
Btw, I've been testing the game on my AK2 and all works fine and the music sounds great (no headphones), I didn't hear any clicking or whatever things.

EDIT: found this seller, got a bunch of them R4, AK2 (£13.99 with 2GB Micro SD), etc..
linky (http://ndscardmart.co.uk/index.php)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 28, 2009, 04:59:46 PM
The acekard 2i is my personal fave... Dirt cheap and works with everything. I would avoid the m3 cards personally. The CycloDS is perhaps the best overall card, but not really worth the extra cost.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 28, 2009, 05:21:11 PM
I cant order from there due they what PHONE home for verify... I dislike pretty like that. Acekard 2i seen very cool.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 28, 2009, 05:22:42 PM
That sounds weird but I'm sure there are other places. Heck, if all else fails, you always have dealextreme if you wanna wait like 3 weeks for delivery  :D.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 28, 2009, 05:34:57 PM
I always used pcJerry
http://www.pcjerry.co.uk/ (http://www.pcjerry.co.uk/)

use this link
http://www.pcjerry.co.uk/scp/Consoles%5F%26%5FGaming/NDS%5FAccessories.html (http://www.pcjerry.co.uk/scp/Consoles%5F%26%5FGaming/NDS%5FAccessories.html)

and always found them very good and quick!!! (I have used them over 10 times)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 28, 2009, 05:39:35 PM
I think that posts should have been moved into own thread, since it nothing due with MMLL, sorry about that.

I want EU dealers, else wise its a 40% (its not that problem) +150dkr (i HATE that rougly fee). I think I just order from that website Flash found :-D, due you have used them a lots :-D.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 28, 2009, 05:46:44 PM
I have no idea about them with international orders ( well.. out of England), but.. I can honestly say.. Everything I have ordered is here in 1-2 days, well packaged, and exactly what I ordered.. Plus, I also got some memory card readers thrown in once.. And a refund of a small amount, when the price on the website had not been updated (and was lower than i purchased at) - that is honesty from a company!.

We don't need another thread for this (unless there is a lot more to come).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 28, 2009, 06:01:47 PM
its might take around week which is normally from UK to DK (its not first time I order from UK). Just order a acekard 2i. Should not have problems with my Lite, since firmware 1.4 I guess is for DSi only (which got it blocked)....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 29, 2009, 06:03:25 AM
The acekard 2i is my personal fave... Dirt cheap and works with everything.

Oh, works with DS/DSLite too? I'd thought it wouldn't...

Btw I'm sending you a mail with some corrections to the YF level... I think it's impossible to solve it as it is now :(

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 29, 2009, 06:33:52 AM
YF is easy mate!!

Just use the switch on the right, after you get the key in the middle
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 29, 2009, 06:40:50 AM
YF is easy mate!!
Just use the switch on the right, after you get the key in the middle

You mean you completed it? ??? I really coulnd't reach both the keys in the upper right corner of the screen and the one in the lower left corner... I sent you an e-mail with corrections just a couple of seconds ago... well, ignore it if you don't need it... (btw are we sure I'm a beta tester?  :-[ )

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 29, 2009, 06:49:18 AM
Yes, you are a beta tester. :)

If you flick the switch on the right hand, you can use the lift to get to the final key at the top.

I will have another go now and check I can still do it (in case something has changed)

Frankie can be jumped over, but it is close, stand on the platform to his right and wait till he is about to come toward you and jump, then quickly jump again to get the key.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 29, 2009, 09:07:00 AM
If you flick the switch on the right hand, you can use the lift to get to the final key at the top.

mmm... that's really too hard for me. Anyway what's important now is that actually there's somebody who can finish it :) [Also I didn't succeed jumping over Frankie, the platform on his right is crumbling so I can't get the correct timing to do that. Well, I'm a below average player...]

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 29, 2009, 09:31:37 AM
Ok,

I will make a consession and change the crumbler to a solid.. Hope that will help
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 29, 2009, 09:37:03 AM
I will make a consession and change the crumbler to a solid.

No, really, don't worry. Knowing that it can be done means I'll do it sooner or later ;)

btw I just reminded I spotted some other little bugs.
One is that in some levels when Willy dies, a tombstone appears, with "RIP" written on it. Well, if Willy dies facing east, the tombstone appears mirrored...
Then, in BTTF level if I remember correctly, there's written BENNETTON in the text in the subscreen. I think you meant BENETTON...

Bye! :)

edit: I succeed in jumping over Frankie and also almost took the last key :) Just a little bit is missing :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 29, 2009, 01:07:24 PM
EDIT:
I have tried about 20 times and still not completed the level (but very close), but got all keys. Air Time seen fine.

There is 2 issues I think would could been changed as I wrote in the text:

1. The crunching platform right the lamp jump over do I dislike and is really too easy to jump to late and dying (that is much problem for me). Yes is possible, but really bit hard? Just move that a tile to left and its done.

2. I think just slow down a little bit to Frankie for easier to jump over him? I gonna think use solid blocks to jump him over to left, and crouching block when you need to jump over again (due you known the timing after first jump)?

Bug:
1. The bottom conveyor move to right, but should move to left as Willy move that way too.


Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 29, 2009, 03:46:23 PM
King Kong would been the next tune. Its would been very much Frankinstain, but only with bass and organ on the midi file I posted eailer in some pages ago.

I think if info is shown about songs in the jukebox feature, it can been stated if it is "no midi", "converted from midi", "lossy based on midi".

Only the paino is the only midi patch sound (that one Modplug Tracker used), I ever used on all tune (due its was a really good one), rest is various synth and samples I have brought....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 29, 2009, 04:09:10 PM
Really looking forward to some more tunes mate ;)

With the jukebox, I am not sure what to do with that.. What would be nice is to select it from the game menu and have another screen that shows the tunes to select and perhaps bars in time to the sound triggers for animation?

I will have to have a word with Sverx about a way to get the trigger info back via ipc from arm7 to the arm9 for use?

If not, perhaps something else?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 29, 2009, 04:20:21 PM
not sure what you mean about animation?

You can do same way as did for Warhawk Selection screen. You might need that anyway, due starting from movie or Lost Level levels, so why not use that screen to select tunes (its does not really need its own jukebox screen, so that one would been fine too)?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 29, 2009, 06:57:07 PM
One is that in some levels when Willy dies, a tombstone appears, with "RIP" written on it. Well, if Willy dies facing east, the tombstone appears mirrored...

Yeah, is there any way to have tombstone appear originally as it is (without flipping) regardless of whether Willy dies to the left/right? Also, fun thing about it is..wait until you die and 'death animation' starts and press jump...hahahah, very funny.

Then, in BTTF level if I remember correctly, there's written BENNETTON in the text in the subscreen. I think you meant BENETTON...
Gosh! For all the shirts I've owned and still can't spell it right. Yeah, it is Benetton. Also, in scroller there's a typo where it says ' SpecTUM level...' thingie.

As mentioned, conveyor on YF should go to the left, I thin I've mentioned this to flash as the latest version was drawn to have that illusion?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 29, 2009, 07:13:21 PM
Sorted the YF conveyor.

Think I have sorted the RIP thing.

Jump on death - I had not noticed that... I think I should stop that LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 29, 2009, 07:38:46 PM
Nono, haha..leave it, I always jump like a tombstone when it happens.  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 29, 2009, 08:00:15 PM
Do this game gonna have a pause feature?

I gonna toccata.xm (which need a bit more work the organ sound, now the volume thing got work) being used in the "the meteor storm" level?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on September 29, 2009, 09:08:09 PM
Yeah, it has a pause, just done yesterday methinks.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 29, 2009, 09:15:58 PM
Yeah... Pause is there,

From Pause you can.

Quit game
Resume game
and Lose life
Oh,
and return to title
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 30, 2009, 06:29:48 AM
I was going to tell you about "Spectum" but Lobo was faster :)
Btw yesterday I also succeed -once- in jumping over Frankie, taking the key and get back. Then I also reached that upper right key -only once again- but failed getting back. I think I'll solve it one of these days years ;)
Ah, there's a crumbling block looking like a 'stable' one in the lower left part of the level, I guess the appearance should be changed to reflect what it really is.

About IPC'ing back from ARM7 to ARM9... well, the problem is that libXM7 doesn't implement any callback (yet?) so we really don't know what's happening with the tune. But I didn't understand why you would need that...  ???

I'll be very busy for a couple of days so sorry in advance for my future delays...

Bye!

edit: "Pause"? I just close the DS, and I think everybody's doing that ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 30, 2009, 06:36:33 AM
Have sent you a new demo.

With the music, it was just a thought that we could read when a sound is triggered and do animation timed to music played, like the vu meters/bars etc.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 30, 2009, 09:46:02 AM
it could not just sent some bytes to a shared memory? Most music use 6 channels, few use 4 (only one I remember) or 8. Vumeter on each channels would been cool.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on September 30, 2009, 02:24:14 PM
The problem here is that the mixing is done by the hardware, so we do not have a mixing buffer to use to calculate values for a VU meter...  :-X

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on September 30, 2009, 03:02:25 PM
Well, I was thinking of just having a bit returned when a sound is triggered..

Ie. halfword 0000 0000 0000 0000 representing channels 0-15, when a sound is triggered in arm7, set the relevent bit, when a sound is not triggered, clear the bit.

That would be enought for me to read the bits and at least have come action in relation to a trigger?

Perhaps!!??
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on September 30, 2009, 07:10:07 PM
I think arm9 could clear the bit when first got? that would been ok for some vumeter (like you see in most module players) display? Sometimes I use release effect (to stop the sound) as well, but not needed to been detected if you ask me.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on September 30, 2009, 11:45:06 PM
Shouldn't it be "Willywood" instead of "Hollywood Willy"?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 01, 2009, 01:13:30 AM
Shouldn't it be "Willywood" instead of "Hollywood Willy"?

Makes sense :D. Also, Flash, what is 'Blagger' all about?
'Real central' is really cool, definitely leave it.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 06:24:30 AM
I was gonna see if I could grab the first level of 'Blagger' (a c64 manic miner rip off by tony crowther) and add that as a bonus level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 01, 2009, 09:48:12 AM
[...] at least have come action in relation to a trigger?

I think if you simply want to see if something happens it's easier to read the pattern accessing directly your XM7_ModuleManager_Type struct. You can read CurrentLine and when it changes you can access Pattern[CurrentPatternNumber] and check if the line currently playing contains a note. That would be easy and probably would fit. Just remember that these values change because of the ARM7 program so you should flush and invalidate the cache (just flushing it always worked for me) before accessing this struct.

See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e8uyL4Qngo), here I'm drawing the patterns on screen (so I'm accessing the data with the ARM9) while playing the tune with libXM7. It worked ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 12:18:22 PM
Sound like a soiid idea, but remember - I am just a humble ASM coder, all this C talk makes my ears bleed!! LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 01, 2009, 01:54:15 PM
The struct he's referring to is the data stored in the "Module:" label in my music.s file. To get the value of "CurrentLine" you just have to find the offset in the struct (XM7_ModuleManager_Type) and then read the value from "Module:" using the offset. The header file you need to look at is "libxm7.h" (included in the libxm7 example from sverx's website) which contains the definition of the structs so from that you should be able to calculate the offsets. Most values are pretty obvious u8 is 8 bits, u16 is 16 bits, u32 is 32 bits. I think it's a good learning excercise for you but if you have any trouble PM me and I can help go through it in more detail.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 01, 2009, 02:24:38 PM
To get the value of "CurrentLine" you just have to find the offset in the struct (XM7_ModuleManager_Type) and then read the value from "Module:" using the offset.

Even if I never did that, I guess it's exactly like that. So you need the offsets of this variable and you need the offset of the CurrentPatternNumber and the offset of the Pattern array. Then read the CurrentPatternNumber-th item in the Pattern array, this is a pointer to the place in memory where the currently playing pattern is.

At this location you'll find 5 bytes for each channel for each row of the pattern, so you've got to skip CurrentLine * <number or channels in this XM> * 5 bytes and start reading from here. The 1st byte of every 5 is the note that should be triggered (1 to 96 means C-0 to B-9 plus 0=no note, 97= key off)

The number of channels is in the NumberofChannels variable, always in that same struct.

Hope it helps...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 03:10:10 PM
Sod it, now my brain is bleeding
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 01, 2009, 03:24:14 PM
Ok, let's try to do that together...

Code: [Select]
       u16 State;                      // at offset: 0
        char ModuleName  [20];    // offset: 2
        char TrackerName [20];    // offset:22
        u16 ModuleLength;           // offset:42
        u16 RestartPoint;             // offset:44
        u8 NumberofChannels;      //  offset:46
        u8 NumberofInstruments;   //        :47
        u16 NumberofPatterns;     //        :48
        u8 FreqTable;                  //      :50
        u8 DefaultTempo;             //     :51
        u8 DefaultBPM;                //     :52
        u8 PatternOrder[256];      //    :53
        u16 PatternLength[256];    // :54
        XM7_SingleNoteArray_Type* Pattern [256];     // :56
        XM7_Instrument_Type* Instrument[128];        // : 312
        u8 CurrentTempo;              // :824
        u8 CurrentBPM;                 // :825
        u8 CurrentGlobalVolume;     // :826
        u8 CurrentSongPosition;     //  :827
        u8 CurrentPatternNumber;   //  :828
        u8 CurrentLine;                 //  :829
        u8 CurrentTick;                //  :830

Should be correct. Now I think I'll change this order in next release... I've never realized it's so bad.  :-X

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 01, 2009, 04:16:06 PM
In other words to get the CurrentSongPosition value we first look at what it's defined as in the struct

Code: [Select]
u8 CurrentSongPosition
Okay so it's a u8 (unsigned 8 bits or a byte in size) and the offset calculated by sverx is 827 bytes.

So to get the value of the song position we do this after we have loaded the module via XM7_LoadXM which fills "Module" with this data.

Code: [Select]
ldr r0, =Module @ This is the pointer to XM7_ModuleManager_Type where the data is loaded via XM7_LoadXM
add r0, #827 @ Add the byte offset to CurrentSongPosition
ldrb r1, [r0] @ Read the byte value of CurrentSongPosition

So the value of CurrentSongPosition is now stored in r1. Simple eh? And no blood loss from the brain to be had!  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 05:12:40 PM
Thanks mate ;)

I am now just thowing together the audio option screen.

This will have sfx vol adjust and music on/off

Also, the jukebox.. So, once I have all this going (menu's are a pain in ASM) I will have the top screen free (with piccy) to use for lots of sprites to do stuff based on the init of sounds in the tune.

Hmmm... LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 01, 2009, 05:23:51 PM
menu's are a pain in ASM

I totally agree with you there Flash lol Your right though they are a PITA but the hiscore stuff in Warhawk was more annoying IMHO
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 05:48:04 PM
I will do the highscore stuff soon..

I am going to keep the scores as binary digits (6 per entry) 0,0,0,0,0,0 and then compare them in that format for the entry.. LOL.. I like doing things the easy way too....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 01, 2009, 07:25:55 PM
I was gonna see if I could grab the first level of 'Blagger' (a c64 manic miner rip off by tony crowther) and add that as a bonus level.
Odd, never heard of it before, just how many MM clones are out there?? Anyhoo, from what I've seen it seems like it's almost as our movie levels, inspired with crazy stuff (there's mad hatter level as well).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 01, 2009, 07:42:06 PM
Personly I would like to do something with the many extra levels from the SAM version using original graphics and aggresive version of MM theme.

First Miner game I ever played was China Miner to C64, which also a clone. Hence its not radom why I choiced a piano rag in one of the levels.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 08:23:57 PM
Personly I would like to do something with the many extra levels from the SAM version using original graphics and aggresive version of MM theme.

First Miner game I ever played was China Miner to C64, which also a clone. Hence its not radom why I choiced a piano rag in one of the levels.
Ok mate,

Find me a cheat so I can get to the Coupe levels and let me know what ones you would like to add as bonus levels and I will happily add them mate..

Also, China Miner, I will check that out to see if the mechanics of the game are the same?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 08:26:51 PM
Odd, never heard of it before, just how many MM clones are out there?? Anyhoo, from what I've seen it seems like it's almost as our movie levels, inspired with crazy stuff (there's mad hatter level as well).

Blagger was a pretty smart game, and i have a bit of a soft spot for Ratt also, so it would be nice to add a level or 2? (Though perhaps with original graphics? ? ? ? ? ?)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 01, 2009, 08:34:11 PM
Maybe one or two levels, I see one called 'the chinese takeaway', almost seeing Jack Nicholson in there for some reason.  8)

Hah, there's a level called 'the evil dentist', this one familiar, flash?  :o
Though, 'Mad Hatter' sounds better just cause it has, well...MAD HATTER!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 01, 2009, 08:46:36 PM
http://www.worldofsam.org/node/57

There should been a cheat mode for the sam, but it diddent work here (due it seen the emulator I used did not send F functions at all, and the required 4 keys holding ghosted my keyboard).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 01, 2009, 09:57:22 PM
http://www.worldofsam.org/node/57

There should been a cheat mode for the sam, but it diddent work here (due it seen the emulator I used did not send F functions at all, and the required 4 keys holding ghosted my keyboard).
I will have a search for a working cheat, and failing that, perhaps crack it - z80 based asm i can handle - mostly LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 02, 2009, 05:58:32 AM
HK is right about how to access struct members, but I'm not sure I calculated the offset correctly, be careful with those ;) [I also realized now that there are some values you might be interested with that are after those I copied... well, HK can easily calculate the other offsets you may need :) ]

Btw, what are you planning to do? Moving something on the screen at the same speed of the tune? Turn on/off lights when instruments and/or channels are used? Draw fingers on a piano keyboard according to notes played? ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 02, 2009, 06:52:20 AM
Just animation when instruments are used really... Not entirely sure.. LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 02, 2009, 01:44:42 PM
Just animation when instruments are used really... Not entirely sure.. LOL

If you just need to sync to the music, you could simply use CurrentLine member (the byte at offset 829). Each time it changes it means that the music tempo is going on...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 02, 2009, 02:46:53 PM
for vumeter (like the channel "vumenter" like xmplay, deliplayer or such), its also needed to known if a note is played. Tempo in some songs can been changed as well (I do think only title do that).

Names for song is also nice and found out some songs was still missings a title. I send when new songs is done, no need to doing that now.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 02, 2009, 03:48:14 PM
SF, I have done the jukebox (without animation for now) and have added names for all the current songs (I made some names up so they were not just one word).

Also, had added SFX volume control and game music on/off.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 02, 2009, 04:49:09 PM
can you send me names, so I can add these to the title tag in the XM (which have around 16 chars)? That why I do titles short.

Issue:
If you swap screen, the screens is also swapped in gameover as well title which you can't swap. Either they should been swappeble to or stay in the original screen without have been swapped (which I guess should only been possible ingame).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 02, 2009, 06:14:05 PM
Well done for spotting another little bug mate.. You are getting pretty good at this... :)

I will send you a demo later that has the audio screen and the names I have used, if there are any you REALLY don't like, please let me know mate..

I will see about sorting the flipping out..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 02, 2009, 07:15:14 PM
I mean I have posted this eailer as well when the flip feature was just made :-D.

Just sent a another (simple) tune inspirated from a Space Taxi tune which works well here as well.....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 02, 2009, 09:39:09 PM
in "the channel tunnel"

I gonna think the thumbstone should stay when dying in the water intead fall down very fast, floating or Willy got drown?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 02, 2009, 10:13:45 PM
The death animations are not level specific. Perhaps I could stop them falling onto tiles that kill you - that would stop them falling off the screen. But on some levels I need it to, like rocky horror?

So, not sure what is best there?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 02, 2009, 10:44:26 PM
I propose a simple solution, we all go to the cemetery, grab the tombstone, throw it in the lake and see what happens?  8)
As long as things are floating on conveyor belt, which is the funniest thing ever (next to the jumping while dead), everything else is fine. I would probably vote for drownin' though ;).

Also, just played (and finished, hah!) the blagger map, pretty cool methinks.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 02, 2009, 10:58:29 PM
Its one level title I really do not like, its "Tokyo uh oh". Instead it could been somewhere "uh oh, my town" for a more nautral picture of the main game?

There is some levels without music (not taken end game etc here), not sure can fit them all, here is the list missing...

The Channel Tunnel:
 underground.xm? (I sent that one soon and might need more work and more instruments)

Tokyo uh oh! (read above):
 not sure really for now.

The Space Shuttle:
 shuttle.xm (finished today)

The Meteor Storm:
 toccata.xm (need more work, but useable on that level)

The End?
 not sure really for now.

The Final? Barrier:
 not sure really for now.

This is the Last Cavern:
 W.I.P.

The Horror Picture:
 W.I.P.






Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 03, 2009, 12:55:22 AM
Unfortunately, 'Tokyo, Uh-Oh' is the actual title from gba (I think) version so it's probably not Ok to change these titles.
Plus, it is kinda funny Toe-Key-Oh-Uh-Oh, you know?




Well..Ok, not that funny.  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 04, 2009, 07:49:14 AM
For the hiscore tune, it could been Prelude No.2 in C minor (BWV 847)? (the tune is also used in C64 Space Harrier hiscore, a tune that was not a part of the arcade game)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 04, 2009, 11:02:54 AM
Names for song is also nice and found out some songs was still missings a title. I send when new songs is done, no need to doing that now.

Actually we can ignore the song name stored inside the XM... so it's up to you if you want to store a title in the file or not. There are 20 chars, btw. :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 05, 2009, 05:38:45 AM
I use "SF - " for first 5 chars, so I just call these as I did called the filenames. Its nice to doing that allready to show correctly name in example xmplay. The XM titlenames do not have any use in the game (only if they got memory ripped).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 06, 2009, 11:50:05 PM
Ahaha, just played the latest, ending is rather bloody!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 07, 2009, 06:47:44 AM
SF: now that you're able to test homebrew on hardware, I think you should download xm7Play (http://wcms.teleion.it/users/cgq/nds/libxm7/xm7play.r2009-005.zip) and test with it the 8 bits versions of your XMs: if the optimizer works (you can see it because it writes "+Sample n of instrument m optimized 8xy") then it means that you should take care of that sample because it won't play perfectly -as it is- with libXM7.

I'm here to help if you need :)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 01:28:13 PM
I look into this sooner and later before game release, so I hear the last remaining sample problems, even I did fix most of them. I think its only few issues left (Egyptian example still have some problem left, but could been much worse). I do not torch the 16 bit one, since they are not used in the game.

I need to get last tunes done first  :).

-----

Heard tunes on the real hardware. Speakers seen only play on the middle freqens and all high pitch and bass instruments is missing. For the most it playable on most songs, most problem is in the egyptian.xm where the main flute is hard to heard. I do fix that and also checking out in the xm7play soon. Its should been stated the game is best played with the heardphone and I generally trying to turn up samples. Noise is not a problem on real hardware using 8 bit at all
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 07, 2009, 05:24:43 PM
I do not torch the 16 bit one, since they are not used in the game.

If they're not used it's okay to torch them.   :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 07, 2009, 06:01:52 PM
If they're not used it's okay to torch them.   :D

They would be nice to release as mp3's at a later date though... they should not be torched. :)

Seriously though..

SF's music in the game is damn fine even in 8 bit. When the game is finished it may be worth using some of the music in 16bit IF there is room in 3.8 megs... Who knows?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 07:12:59 PM
16 bit versions is not used, but its really easy to convert them using milky Tracker, so I work on 16 bit version, due I plans to release a game soundtrack as a christmas gift with full coverart. Hope Lobo would do that, even I might down tune the Lobo09 signature a bit, but still got credited of course, which is a bit too big to been use as a music coverart, but have no problems with that on the DS coverart (which is AWESOME).

I do NOT have plans to release mp3's due size of them compared with the 16 bit xm, instead the soundtrack would been the xm's. Instead winamp, xmplay or such software can been used to convert to wav or to mp3. Only problem is id3 tags... Let see what I do.

By now there is the jukebox screen, which can been used too.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 07, 2009, 07:17:01 PM
Oh, cover art!!!

(http://www.greatflash.co.uk/MMLL/Cover.jpg)

Isn't Lobo wonderful, fluffy, and so so ? Er... Something!?

(I should have posted this here ages ago..)

SF... We need MP3!!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 07:32:18 PM
I can not read which instrument that got optimized due the screen got blackout few sec after start. I want that screen to been stay so I can listen carryfull in XM7Play and eventuelly fix problem samples so it not need to been optimized, but it seen it not a very big problem to fix these. The Egyptian got somewhere fixed with the low flute. I checking these on real hardware of course.

The quality of xm 16 bit versions might been better than compressed mp3's and only few studio versions is ever finished...... That why I want to stick to XM, even samples etc got ripped or such (which I do NOT have any problems with that).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 07, 2009, 07:38:42 PM
I take it you are talking about xm7play?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 07:44:22 PM
yes, that link sverx gave. The Xm7Play (I guess the name can been confusion with the other XmPlay I sometime talk about?) player "blackout" (but still play the song) the screen soon after it start (when I testing the 8 bit versions), but the tunes got played and does not crash. I just want to see how the sample got optimized (and how it did), length of the instrument etc.... So I can fix the most problem ones. Not all samples might not require it and most modules load fine without optimizing.

For the 16 bit release the files can been converted to mp3, ogg (or what they need) by software like winmap, xmplay or such (here its NOT xm7play, but that one from http://www.un4seen.com).


For the release plan my and Flash talked about the game would been released 1. nov, so the game can been polished and got the music finshed and eventually got fixed some xm. 1. nov is still great date.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 07, 2009, 08:13:02 PM
Yeah, he did mention November to be the month of release. As he keeps adding stuff like crazy, it might be November.....2024!  :D

As for the xmass tunes cover, yeah, it can be done...even though I prefer Halloween but close enough.  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
It was me that choiced that date (I think), so I can do the last tunes finished they. One is soon finshed today. The last movie I missing, which is some mix of some original (the bass) and Im Going Home.

For the xmas it was just something a present I want to give when I release my song in 16 bit, and there is soon december (which mean we need a least a xmas level with xmas music, but nor important).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 07, 2009, 08:29:30 PM
You can never tell with release dates, let's hope for November.......2009!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 07, 2009, 08:35:03 PM
Lovely cover art. (http://tardis.dk/images/smilies/heart.gif)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 08:40:46 PM
its somewhere november about 5 years  ;D.

No I guess the Halloween day, October 31, 2009 would been great day for the MMLL release (beta or not, its near final now). Some levels do have somewhere Halloween over it, so why not use that day for the release.....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 07, 2009, 09:08:37 PM
Yesh, October 31st would be just fine, just before midnight~cause it's a witching hour. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 09:16:26 PM
even the first level have some witch :-D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 07, 2009, 09:50:00 PM
I am glad that you lot have picked a release day for me LOL

You guys!!! HA HA

I will see what I can do for the end of the month, but there is STILL a lot of little things I want to add, and sometimes they take more time than the big things!.... Some of the coupe levels need the game to be altered for them to work... and let's not mention China Miner.

I have done the first level of that for inclusion (there is a lot of bits in the code ready for stuff) but I could not even clear the first level - I could not collect the key? Walked over it 100 times and it just sat there? (in the original)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 07, 2009, 09:53:06 PM
Oh, and I am still waiting for Rev Stu to come back with the modified story!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 07, 2009, 10:32:13 PM
I am glad that you lot have picked a release day for me LOL

It was spacefractal, he did it - guilty!!
As far as I'm concerned, you can release it whenever you want




Whenever meaning Monday, of course.


What modified story are you speaking of? I thought you're following the original story from those screenshots you posted, from some magazine?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 10:35:26 PM
Some story on later levels is missing, they need to been finished first.

If 31. okt is too early we just move it a week or when done, but would been fun since the game contain Halloween levels as well. No problem with me, but the game is very much done. Orignally plan was actuelly 1. Nov which seen was accepted by Flash (if possible of course).

China Miner is not really needed since its a clone and not 100% gameplay suitable to Manic Miner (its might play somewhere diffecent)? I remember I did not have problem with China Miner? It seen I need to test the game again, since its some time ago I played the last.

Sam levels is funnier, since its really a Manic Miner game and hence more suitable for the Lost Level Theme as hidden levels. I found a very good sid C64 version tune of the MM theme (yes its just a old classic tune) which I can use in the bonus level(s). Its very great aggresive, and since most bonus levels use original graphics, the music should something been retro here as well. Howover I can not record sam sounds seperated channels. so I might use that C64 tune instead.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 07, 2009, 10:37:11 PM
What modified story are you speaking of? I thought you're following the original story from those screenshots you posted, from some magazine?

Yes, I am.. This is the article by Rev Stu.. But.. In light of the work we have done in theming some of the levels and the such etc.. Stuart said he would like to rejig the story to fit our work. That would be nice also (for the 20 LL's)... But.. He is a busy man, so I may have to fill the story in from the mag (as you notice, I have left it pretty empty from level 10 or so onwards in readyness)

So, he better hurry up if I only have till Monday!! ULP! :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 07, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
Some story on later levels is missing, they need to been finished first.

If 31. okt is too early we just move it a week or when done. No problem with me, but the game is very much done. Orignally plan was actuelly 1. Nov which seen was accepted by Flash (if possible of course).

China Miner is not really needed since its a clone and not 100% gameplay suitable to Manic Miner (its might play somewhere diffecent)? I remember I did not have problem with China Miner? It seen I need to test the game again, since its some time ago I played the last.

Sam levels is funnier, since its really a Manic Miner game and hence more suitable for the Lost Level Theme as hidden levels. I found a very good sid C64 version tune of the MM theme which I can use in the bonus level. Its very aggresive, and since its very much use original graphics, the music should something been retro here as well. Howover I can not record sam sounds seperated channels.

Like the idea of the Agressive MM tune :)

I am not really sure about CM, it was a bit poo originally.. Though I could use the graphics and level for a bonus?

I have grabbed 7 of the best Coupe levels (ones with trampolines and lifts etc) and perhaps I will add them and another Blagger level, and perhaps one more original based on something different... Not sure..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 07, 2009, 10:47:00 PM
Instead of CM, might been this level from Bic Mac which should been really easy to translate to a Manic Level? http://www.zzap64.co.uk/cgi-bin/displaypage.pl?issue=002&page=054&thumbstart=0&magazine=zzap&check=1. I remember its one of the first levels in the original.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 07, 2009, 10:55:58 PM
So, he better hurry up if I only have till Monday!! ULP! :)

Yes, he have until Sunday then. If not, you always have the original text as I did notice it's not incorporated into some of the levels yet.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 08, 2009, 07:12:38 AM
The Xm7Play (I guess the name can been confusion with the other XmPlay I sometime talk about?) player "blackout" (but still play the song) the screen soon after it start (when I testing the 8 bit versions), but the tunes got played and does not crash.

It's saving your NDS batteries, if you want to turn on the screen simply touch it. Keep it touched if you need to read what's written there. Optimization (for 8 bits samples) is described in the form of 8xy where 'x' can be 0,1,2,3 and 'y' can be 1,2,4. (but you won't ever see 801, that would mean no optimization needed)

'x' value means how many 8 bits samples were added to the beginning of the sample to achieve the 32 bit boundary requirement on the NON-looping part of the sample (this part length should be multiple of 4)
'y' value means how many times the optimizer 'cloned' the looping part of the sample (also this, the loop length, should be multiple of 4 to meet the hardware requirement of 32 bit boundary for figures)

Optimizer works only on samples with loop. And since the hardware doesn't support ping-pong loops in samples, those are converted (by the loader, not by the optimizer) to forward loops 'unrolling' the loop.

I hope all that explained well enough... if it's not I beg your pardon and I'm here to help :)

Bye!

edit: I forgot to mention that the optimizer is a feature of xm7Play, so actually tunes will play better with xm7Play than how will play in MMLL (of course only when the optimizer actually works...)
To disable xm7Play optimizer (to hear differences) keep L shoulder key (or R shoulder key) pressed when loading a tune. :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 08, 2009, 01:43:17 PM
Its should been stated the game is best played with the heardphone [...]

I think every DS owner already knows that music quality with headphones is higher... I personally think you should do your best to make each tune sound as good as possible with speakers. :) (I was sure you'd find that the speaker output on real hardware far from perfect...)

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 08, 2009, 02:03:55 PM
Ok, let's try to do that together...

Code: [Select]
       u16 State;                      // at offset: 0
        char ModuleName  [20];    // offset: 2
        char TrackerName [20];    // offset:22
        u16 ModuleLength;           // offset:42
        u16 RestartPoint;             // offset:44
        u8 NumberofChannels;      //  offset:46
        u8 NumberofInstruments;   //        :47
        u16 NumberofPatterns;     //        :48
        u8 FreqTable;                  //      :50
        u8 DefaultTempo;             //     :51
        u8 DefaultBPM;                //     :52
        u8 PatternOrder[256];      //    :53
        u16 PatternLength[256];    // :54
        XM7_SingleNoteArray_Type* Pattern [256];     // :56
        XM7_Instrument_Type* Instrument[128];        // : 312
        u8 CurrentTempo;              // :824
        u8 CurrentBPM;                 // :825
        u8 CurrentGlobalVolume;     // :826
        u8 CurrentSongPosition;     //  :827
        u8 CurrentPatternNumber;   //  :828
        u8 CurrentLine;                 //  :829
        u8 CurrentTick;                //  :830

Should be correct. Now I think I'll change this order in next release... I've never realized it's so bad.  :-X



Are you sure the offsets are correct? I can grab number of channels, but pattern number, pos etc give static values?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 08, 2009, 02:13:36 PM
Are you sure the offsets are correct?

No, I'm not. I can double check but I'm not even really sure I can calculate them correctly ...

edit: no, it's wrong from the half on...

Code: [Select]
       XM7_Instrument_Type* Instrument[128];        // : 1080
        u8 CurrentTempo;              // :1592
        u8 CurrentBPM;                 // :1593
        u8 CurrentGlobalVolume;     // :1594
        u8 CurrentSongPosition;     //  :1595
        u8 CurrentPatternNumber;   //  :1596
        u8 CurrentLine;                 //  :1597
        u8 CurrentTick;                //  :1598

I can grab number of channels, but pattern number, pos etc give static values?

This seem the ARM9 cache doing his work. Try flushing the cache before reading those, it worked for me.
(and I guess you mean to read those with names starting with Current, right? Other values aren't changing...)


Don't mind this ;)



Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 08, 2009, 02:25:53 PM
bugger,

I give up for now...

The offsets give me 000000 on all current values. Tempo, channels etc are fine?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 08, 2009, 04:18:08 PM
I think every DS owner already knows that music quality with headphones is higher... I personally think you should do your best to make each tune sound as good as possible with speakers. :) (I was sure you'd find that the speaker output on real hardware far from perfect...)

Bye!



its first recently I have heard the tunes from the lite speakers. I do fix most problem tunes, so example even without bass its still fully listable.

In the Jukebox Section I like you could flip from the last song til the first song and the other way....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 08, 2009, 04:39:46 PM
In the Jukebox Section I like you could flip from the last song til the first song and the other way....

Oh! you would, would you?

You make more demands than the wife LOL

I will see what I can do mate :)

(I only left that out as i was not sure how many tracks I would have.. I will add a check to the code)

ps.. Should all tunes be available in the justbox or just ones you have heard in the game?? So, you add to the jukebox as you progress?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 08, 2009, 05:15:43 PM
For the PS, its was the original plan so they first unlocked after heard in the game, but not needed to complete that level (titles could still been shown, but with a lock and cant play it)... Title, Gameover and Hiscore and first level should allready to been unlocked (since you would heard them anyway first time you play, so they are nowhere secrets at all) and they should play in the order first heard in the game and not after filename.


Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 08, 2009, 05:24:08 PM
Ok,

Once we have all the music intact, then I will add that to the jukebox.

I have been fairly busy adding stuff today.

The highscore now has a fun particle effect that you can play with (it is affected by entering letters)
The highscore face smiles more depending on how high the score is ranked
Normal completion has now got some animation (level skip to see it)
2 more levels added, both from coupe. One has Trampolines in it.
Some bug fixing
Found a nasty bug that could have caused every sprite to be shifted x pixels left or right. In my sprite code, I had left the horizontal movement code intact (From Warhawk), so.. If register 4 contained anything other than 0 when drawSprite was called, the sprites would all shift that amount.. HA HA!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 08, 2009, 06:01:39 PM
they I did not spotted that on :-D.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 08, 2009, 08:10:19 PM
Ok,

I HAVE decided that the game will contain 50 levels..

20 Lost Levels (The main ones)
10 Willywood (Our fun level bank)
20 secret levels (ha ha - nicked from other games with perhaps a couple of levels with new things in them)

Hopefully I can get this all done on time.. It really all depends on work!

There is still a lot of little effects I want to add to the last 10 lost levels and some more for the Willywood levels (one is a swaying flag on the Goonies level - when I work out the best way to add that)

Also.. I am a bit lost at the completions... Do we go for an animated screen, or should there be more? I like the LL completion, but it needs a little story to finish it all up - perhaps he decided to go home and watch casablanca on that DVD he bought from the strange Chinese shop he had not noticed before LOL...

Oh so much to do!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 08, 2009, 09:02:21 PM
I head elevators would been one of the secrets level, then the floating platform could been back to the back on the future (the orinally idea with the moving hover board), but that is not required since the level does works fine.

I guess all secrets levels apart few levels would use sam graphics?

I would also really want this game to been seen on PC later points someday, but I guess its DS exclusive.

There need some story, since he take very many places on the MM which seen not connected from level to level, but the story could do a big part for that. So story would been really important, but is not really needed for the secret levels?

How much memory do we have left, I think we still have very much? Good idea to I sticked to the 8 bit versions of the songs.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 08, 2009, 09:45:28 PM
We have about a meg left.. So, all should be fine mate.

There will be more story for the main levels later

There is not a story for bonus levels, but I just went for a description and little bit of 'rubbish' humor as the text still needs to be there

There are no elevators. in the sam coupe version there were areas that lifted you - more like esculators i suppose.. I have not added them yet - I may do.. The trampolines are in

I will send you a demo with all the bonus levels unlock (finished ones only)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 09, 2009, 06:04:41 AM
the hiscore is pretty nice...... No need to do the tune longer if you ask me and its fine I got the replay tune shorter which also works fine. For short names i normally use spacef or just sf, but is still nice.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 09, 2009, 06:16:43 AM
The offsets give me 000000 on all current values.

Wrong offsets again? Groan... let me check once more again...

btw yesterday I found a strange bug in the latest beta: sometimes when Willy dies hitting an enemy, the sound effect doesn't play. I can reproduce the bug but it's hard to describe... seems it happens when Willy is jumping and he hits an enemy when in the descending part of the jump... try with King Kong level, jumping against the airplane flying in the lower right corner.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 09, 2009, 06:22:42 AM
SF: I've got a request ;) Listen to this organ:

can you modify the volume envelope of the organ in your XM to sound more like this one? I love how this sound (don't you?)  8)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 09, 2009, 06:23:36 AM
I think that is now sorted, also, sometimes the explosions do not sound when a wall is removed.

Not really sure why this happens, but hopefully it will work ok now?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 09, 2009, 06:41:16 AM
Uff, found another error. Next time I'll make a program to print those offsets instead of trying to calculate them with my brain A-B-someone.

Code: [Select]
       u16 State;                      // at offset: 0
        char ModuleName  [20];    // offset: 2
        char TrackerName [20];    // offset:22
        u16 ModuleLength;           // offset:42
        u16 RestartPoint;             // offset:44
        u8 NumberofChannels;      //  offset:46
        u8 NumberofInstruments;   //        :47
        u16 NumberofPatterns;     //        :48
        u8 FreqTable;                  //      :50
        u8 DefaultTempo;             //     :51
        u8 DefaultBPM;                //     :52
        u8 PatternOrder[256];      //    :53
        u16 PatternLength[256];    // :310          (here was another error)
        XM7_SingleNoteArray_Type* Pattern [256];     // :824
        XM7_Instrument_Type* Instrument[128];        // : 1848
        u8 CurrentTempo;              // :2360
        u8 CurrentBPM;                 // :2361
        u8 CurrentGlobalVolume;     // :2362
        u8 CurrentSongPosition;     //  :2363
        u8 CurrentPatternNumber;   //  :2364
        u8 CurrentLine;                 //  :2365
        u8 CurrentTick;                //  :2364

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 09, 2009, 06:47:32 AM
The reverb was pretty hard to emulate in XM and unlimithed channels like the church organ (which is that way the music should been played and sound :-D). I can only do a cheat reverb on release which I have tried to "longer" it a bit. Also fixed some notes to use 2 channels instead of one (in one part of the music).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 09, 2009, 07:02:25 AM
I can only do a cheat reverb on release which I have tried to "longer" it a bit.

Yes, I was talking about that. I think the volume after the release should drop very fast (drop at a lower level than how's now) but the note should be kept playing like it's currently.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 09, 2009, 09:47:58 AM
I see 2 hidden which use new graphics, rest using old graphics? Something which work like random?

I think a new game mode could been "Oldies but goldies" for the hidden levels which got unlocked when first have found and then played from the menu. I also think all levels should use retroand/or grabbed graphics (except the spectrum one which ok to got "swapped" with the MMLL level) without backgrounds? With this in mind its would give more mean with the hidden levels which have been added recently.

I have a plan to do a C64 style music, which would been based something like DEMOS/A-F/Falu_Mix.sid, spectrum.xm can been used in the spectrum level as well on the blagger level which could have made on spectrum with same graphics.

EDIT:
I have done the C64 like version using some samples from Falu_Mix.sid as well snare from a another sid song and of course only use 3 channels (the delay effect on the main instrument in the start use 2 channels, so it leave snare and bass on same channel).

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 10, 2009, 07:53:20 AM
I found the hidden level in "airlock" (nice spot)....

Another some tweaks:

1. I think it should show something "hidden level found", then it change to the hidden level found, complete the hidden level, and go back to the level where he heft (with few secs more airtime) with the position the hidden level found as well the keys still have left.. The hidden level can also been played just after played the regular level.

2. Another problem is now you can get much higher highscore for playing LL levels than the Movie Levels, so I think you should get some bonus score after completed the gamemode and possible to play the another gamemode after completed the first mode once (you should start either in Lost Level or WillyWood). In this way all 50 levels could been played in the same game.

3. Also should some levels not been hidden in the movie levels as well (I think somewhere 13 in the LL and 7 in Willywood)? Not all levels really need hidden levels.

4. What do it happens if you get a one million (now all 50 levels can been played in row with above tweaks)? I do still think should show 6 numbers, but show the extra one if the million is reached (I did that in Cave Heroes).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 09:21:03 AM
Thanks for the post SF,

1. I want to keep the gameplay of the levels continual as I think jumping to a bonus level once found will disrupt the story really. Though I can look into a way to make it say "bonus level discovered" somewhere without interupting play. Perhaps a sample will do that job?

2. with the highscores between 20 LL and 10 WW levels, the only way to even them up is to get double points for everything in WW levels and double points for the level completion air left score.

3. Levels will be hidden in the WW levels when I have added them. Also perhaps levels can be unlocked from a Bonus level too LOL

4. you should never be able to get a 6 digit score. The maximum amount of levels that can be played in one game is the 20 LL.

Phew!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 10, 2009, 10:18:21 AM
I do not like the double up for the movie levels, simply because it would been easier to get highscore here instead.

You could add a another game mode and let it call "oldies" or "secret" or such game mode, and then play as they was in own "game" only on levels you have found.

Then you should been able to let the user countinue after completed 2 game modes without resetting the score and lives. Just do a "countinue play on a new gamemode" feature on the complete screen, which you can do that once on each gamemode. That would do the job too. You should not been able to replay a gamemode using that feature.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 12:46:22 PM
I will give it some thought... Any suggestions from anyone else?

I personally want to keep one set of highscores.

The LL and WW levels sets as individual game modes and the bonus levels as single playable levels that you can just play for fun once you unlock them. I don't really want the bonus levels to become another game mode.

With how to set the highscores? hmm..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 10, 2009, 01:14:41 PM
do 2 high score tables is best? And let bonus let bonus. For bonus levels no score?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 01:45:05 PM
I did not want to start have 2 of everything, when you do that it stops it being a whole. Perhaps I can work out a way to compensate for the scores between LL and WW
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 10, 2009, 03:28:24 PM
Two hiscores is not really a common thing around, better keep it all in one. It's still a Lost Levels game, those other levels were not meant to be anything more but additions. Unfortunately, the size of those have grown to the point where the things are getting confusing as it now seems as if a completely new game or two games are inside of one. That was not the point. The idea was to finish the original 20 LL and as a reward get to unlock movie levels.
We have bloated up things a little after that, all that is left is to add 360 controller support, a few 3D panorama levels and support for stereo glasses.
Seriously though, keep it kinda simple rather and work on fixes so the game comes out before my 65th birthday, if possible. There is far more content in this game already than any mortal should ever ask for so there's no need to make a Citizen Kane of video games out of it.  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 03:47:13 PM
I do agree Lobo...

And I will have it done before your 65th birthday... After all, Im not gonna take 2 years am I?

It was originally to be just the LL.. Then some artistic guy sent this movie level... Then this artistic guy made me add horace as a bonus level... Somewhere along this, I do have to point the finger!!!!! LOL

But.. I do think the Bonus levels add a little replay value to the game at the expense of a little work. Also, it is nice to add a few of the many (40) Sam Coupe levels as these have never been featured anywhere except in the Coupe version and people have mentioned them in the RG forum regarding the original LL article. So... It is all a bonus.

I think 50 levels is enough for any game and as Lobo said, the main guns of the game are the LL's... and these are what the Highscore is based upon. Also, you have to complete them before you can play WW, so a lot of people may not even see them levels.

Oh, if you have not unlocked them, they also do not show on the title screen.

I have added the Jukebox bit so that it only shows music you have heard in the game. At first there is 3 tunes to select.
Hope that is ok SF?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 10, 2009, 04:30:35 PM
And I will have it done before your 65th birthday... After all, Im not gonna take 2 years am I?

Well, before...Monday would be perfect.  8)
As for the movie levels, yeah I did started it and we got to the round number and is sufficient enough. The same should apply to other levels. Like you said, there will be folks who might never see any of these really. The main thing is that we shouldn't be aiming for some ultimate Miner collection, it's Lost Levels and then umbrella on top.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 04:38:11 PM
And a little cherry!

I am working on bugs and stuff mostly and importing a few levels as I go.

The next step is to get something going for the completion, I will work on that tomorrow after I type these 120 levels in.. These are the bonus bonus bonus levels that come after the bonus bonus levels. I think 2048 levels should be enough? LOL

Seriously.. All I am going to do is make it a round 50 levels. We have 41 now.. So, it is not a reall hardship to round it of with a couple more Blagger levels and a few of the original Spectrum levels, with the final bonus level being the original 20th level of the Spectrum one. These are using original graphics. Though I have added one original level "Cosmic Causeway".

So..

Mostly, all that is involved in the game is a tidy up and bug hunt.. And getting that story in.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 10, 2009, 04:56:56 PM
Mostly, all that is involved in the game is a tidy up and bug hunt.. And getting that story in.

Tidy up and bug hunt, yes, even though I haven't really noticed any bugs really except for those which are features, of course ;).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 05:00:01 PM
I still cannot get that 'jump when dying' bug?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 10, 2009, 05:13:12 PM
Crap, the bug is not working anymore? Damn! I liked that one.  :'(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 05:41:53 PM
I cannot even remember removing it!! LOL

Lobo.. If you want to add any Bonus level designs while I am busy on the code.. Feel free.. We have Trampolines to play with now. It is up to you?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 10, 2009, 07:51:22 PM
I just scare the hiscore system might been wandered out, due the two seperate gamemodes which is not connected together and they both got shared hiscore. Thay why I created seperate hiscore for Cave Heroes.

But here you won't do seperate hiscore, but I do want to could play all 30 levels in same game somewhere.

I now think on the LL victory screen the "try extras now" text could been changed to "countinue to willywood now". The real ending could been after WillyWood sets when he got home and with the nice ending hero music (not started on that yet).

For bonues levels, there could just been simple hiscore for each level as shown in the bottom screen shown ingame.... no names needed here. Just a hiscore for each level or time completed. No need to connect to the 30 levels at all. They are just for real fun and bonus.

For the jukebox, the tunes I guess is Title, Hiscore and GameOver or something? That ok and its was that I wanted, so people have something to unlock while playing.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 10, 2009, 08:08:48 PM
I cannot even remember removing it!! LOL

Lobo.. If you want to add any Bonus level designs while I am busy on the code.. Feel free.. We have Trampolines to play with now. It is up to you?

Yep, definitely not working anymore, tried to jump while dead and nothing happens. :( You must've done something to kill this feature.

What are the bonus level designs?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 08:18:03 PM
The bonus level designs are just what ever you want really. These can be a re-working of a classic level or an original level? It does not matter. They can also be standard or enhanced graphics.

I have sent a demo with the (almost) full complement of levels unlocked for you to look at. I had a bit of fun with 'cosmic causeway'.

One thing i did notice is that all the willy animations only used the first 4 frames and also, when walking left, my code reversed the animation order - DOH! This is fixed now (it also affected all enemies - you could see it on wheels and stuff). Downside is that now willy used all 8 frames and does not animate as well as hoped. In the latest build, willy is cut to 4 frames, but the other forms (spaceman, rick, etc) use all 8. If you look at the spaceman, you will see what i mean (i hope)... Any chance of a bit of a twiddle there?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 10, 2009, 08:39:33 PM
Baz?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 10, 2009, 09:00:13 PM
One thing i did notice is that all the willy animations only used the first 4 frames and also, when walking left, my code reversed the animation order - DOH! This is fixed now (it also affected all enemies - you could see it on wheels and stuff). Downside is that now willy used all 8 frames and does not animate as well as hoped. In the latest build, willy is cut to 4 frames, but the other forms (spaceman, rick, etc) use all 8. If you look at the spaceman, you will see what i mean (i hope)... Any chance of a bit of a twiddle there?

I've sent you a little update, nothing really that I can do beyond this. The only different frame really is the first one as it should be triggered when Willy is not moving but it should work with the rest as well.

I'm still unsure about the bonus, I have to look at those unlocked ones, maybe I can draw that blagger level, have to see what's in there first.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 09:36:00 PM
The replicas of original levels (like Blagger, Coupe) I really want to keep as the original graphic and design.. Though we can add a few new original levels.

I added one today with a new sprite and background, and code for the meteors and it added less than 8k to the file size, so there is plenty of room for stuff! ( and it is a shame not to use it )

The filesize can get to 3.7 megs (roughly) before the need for embedded file systems and file management. So, TONS of room to play with.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 10, 2009, 09:36:53 PM
Baz?

What?

My wifes name is that (well.. Barrie-Jane)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 10, 2009, 10:07:04 PM

I added one today with a new sprite and background

Well, Ok send that level then and I'll check it out.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 11, 2009, 01:59:41 AM
Thought it was about time to check this on the (dreaded) GBA Movie Player... and.. no bugs  8) So great work Flash for writing bug free code!

I love the "get squashed by shoe + other things" at the end. And I was really honored at the homage to TDG's Cook/Horace. Gave me a large grin when I saw that :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 11, 2009, 02:48:29 AM
Seriously, if it works on GBAMP, hah..well it'll work on wrist watches. I can say it's smooth on AK2 as well, just to mention.
Also, the cook from now on has to have special appearance everywhere alongside LaVey.  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 11, 2009, 09:20:51 AM
look like xm7play plays incorrectly and clicky when playing very short samples or is a limit how short the samples can been (chip like samples)? there is clicks in hiscore.xm and egyptian.xm and I cant not been able to fix it, even I have followed the 32bit guide line. Not sure why and I need to use longer samples, since it seen its only on short samples its have some problems with? So i need to drop these short samples to avoid clicks.

bug: if you ship the nice shoe sekvens, you sometimes see the objects in the bottom screen while fading out. I like that and I need to see a TV falling down as well.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 11, 2009, 09:47:00 AM
All the fades between the screens etc will be sorted when all the various screens are added. The problem occurs mostly when screen modes are changed. The game over screens use 4 256x384 sized screens and then switch to all 256x192 screens for the rest of the game over and for the title screen. This causes problems.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 11, 2009, 10:25:39 AM
I have tried to fix the mystery clicks when the flute is played (when it start to play that), even I changed 2 instruments and followed the guideline. So seen I like to found a bug in XM7Play or?

The major problem is in hiscore.xm and is minor problem is in egyptian.xm (most hearable in the intro only).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 11, 2009, 10:41:54 AM
[...] is a limit how short the samples can been (chip like samples)?

Yep, I forgot that. There's a minimum sample size, the whole sample should be at least 16 samples if it's an 8 bits one. So you should repeat the loop more than once if the total length is less than 16 bytes. Forgive me for not mentioning it earlier.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 11, 2009, 11:02:24 AM
I dont think that is the problem, so still not sure what it happens.

The problem still in the egyptian even with much longer sample and only loop once I think in the new version.

So Im are not sure what it happens here.... I can send the tunes (not sure email), but I do got reduced its somewhere in the hiscore5.xm and sound accepable in the ds speacker now, but I cant avoid it 100%.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 11, 2009, 12:49:10 PM
Send me the tunes, I can check them and see if I get some ideas... you can read my e-mail in the profile, it's my nick at yahoo.com btw :)

Anyway unfortunately clicks can't be avoided 100%, there's no 'volume ramping' feature in libXM7 (that would need software mixing or a different track/channel approach...) but we can try to reduce them as much as possible.


Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 11, 2009, 02:32:48 PM
look like it dosent like some samples, and yes volume ramping is that problem. I have tried in some hours to fix the samples, but still clicking. I guess it dosent like the samples I used, due the missing important feature. Exists some software that can fix it on a sample?

____

I gonna I got reducered very much of clicking by joining the two main instrument to one sample (which sound ok, but I wouuld better seperate them, but it diddent work very well), and changed hiscore.xm to using 6 channels.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 11, 2009, 07:23:26 PM
Damn, should've went the 3megs for mp3s and 100kb for graphics option instead.  :D
Fixes sound problemos pronto!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 11, 2009, 07:33:29 PM
LOL....

Actually, at the moment all 31 (or 32) tracks are just over 1 meg... (uncompressed it is 2.1 megs)

The graphics including the intro stuff is 2.65meg without compression and tile reduction (of which there is a LOT of).. So much stuff is compressed in the game it is mad..

File size at the moment (with 7 levels to go) is 2.64meg - so that shows how much compression is in there!!

My code is about 100k LOL

Without compression we would be around 5megs
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 11, 2009, 07:36:54 PM
Holly Trovajoli! That much?


Code 100K...haha, after all these numbers this one just looks so tiny.  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 11, 2009, 10:28:53 PM
Holly Trovajoli! That much?


Code 100K...haha, after all these numbers this one just looks so tiny.  :D

Yeah...and it really shows in the quality. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 11, 2009, 10:32:43 PM
Yes, quality and insanity!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 11, 2009, 10:34:37 PM
If you could just seperate the executable code (remove all the collision maps, the links, music ram, headers, etc) I would be suprised if the acutal code was bigger than 50k... Though there is no real way to tell.
without everything i cannot compile and find out sadly.

Code always makes up the smallest part of any game - by a long chalk.. There are still thousands of lines of code though, and if anyone wants to see it all, it is on google code.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 11, 2009, 10:39:42 PM
What about a zip? ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 11, 2009, 10:43:29 PM
Why, is you knob hanging out? I would suggest scissors!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 11, 2009, 10:59:43 PM
Garden scissors!
But yes, I've seen all those insane folks fitting a whole fps into 64kb of code and such. That's about ten backgrounds for MM LL.  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 11, 2009, 11:06:00 PM
Garden scissors!
But yes, I've seen all those insane folks fitting a whole fps into 64kb of code and such. That's about ten backgrounds for MM LL.  8)

Scissors?....Garden scissors?.... in the wise words of Monty Python - "It's just a flesh wound". It'll take more than that to topple me.
...but you don't have to prove it. :-\

But yes - some people are good a compressing their work. Someone posted a (simple) Space Invaders game a couple of days ago, made in BlitzMax, that only was 64kb compiled (http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=87204).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 11, 2009, 11:25:55 PM
"It's just a flesh wound"

Damn..now I know what we have forgot to include in MM. That and 'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!'.
Damn all!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 12, 2009, 05:24:15 AM
The fps game about was actuelly 92kb and is named ..kkriger, but I cannot play the game, due missing Y-invert feature, even its a nice one.

The SP game is pretty nice made in blitzmax, just missing synth sounds :-D.

Sokurah, I did not heard about the second version of the menu music, please pm with comments.

And yes Manic Miner game is very much compressed.

Im only missing music for the very last level in LL level (I do have a breif FL-Studio version of it), and the endgame music (2 tunes). There might been some oldschool music in the bonus levels, but let see. I do did a C64 style of MM theme it recently.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 12, 2009, 06:48:03 AM
Exists some software that can fix it on a sample?

No, it's that the hardware channel that it's playing a sample got changed abruptly to another sample (or to the beginning of the same one) so you can't avoid that... unless you lower the volume in the end (for instance giving the instrument a volume envelope and triggering a key off via Kxx command just before the next note... quite a task...)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 12, 2009, 06:49:50 AM
Actually, at the moment all 31 (or 32) tracks are just over 1 meg... (uncompressed it is 2.1 megs)

I'm curious about that: can you tell me the total KB of all the XMs and the total of all the .gz ? (Are you using maximum compression, right?)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 12, 2009, 07:11:25 AM
Yes it's using maximum compression.

31 xm songs raw size = 2.04 MB and gzip Compressed (Level 9) size = 834 KB

BTW There is more room that can be squeezed by using ADPCM compressed samples.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 12, 2009, 08:05:48 AM
31 xm songs raw size = 2.04 MB and gzip Compressed (Level 9) size = 834 KB

That's very good, it's only 4/10th of the original size! :)

BTW There is more room that can be squeezed by using ADPCM compressed samples.

There's no support for compressed samples in XM format. And having samples already compressed means gzip won't compress that much. And it's impossible to trigger samples starting from an arbitrary position (XM/MOD effect '9xx')

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 12, 2009, 08:07:03 AM
A funny bug: if you complete all the LL, then all the WW, then you go to start screen and you can select 'start from level 32' (!!!). Try that! ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 12, 2009, 09:33:53 AM
I think he meant sound FX used? And yes XM does not support ADPCM and should not been tried to do something not supported, only if XM7Play could save these compressed samples and read them, but its not doing that this time. But Sound FX can still use ADPCM?

I could "only" start from level 31 in WillyWood and not level 32, but still a funny bug as sverx found as seen in the screenshot.


I got a another nice idea as a alternative to the previous idea:
Let the Lost Level and WillyWood separated, but when both gamemodes have been completed, a new gamemode could been unlocked with named "combo" or something like that to give some replay value to the game and possible to get even high scores....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 12, 2009, 09:39:09 AM
I could "only" start from level 31 in WillyWood and not level 32, but still a funny bug as sverx found as seen in the screenshot.

I forgot I found a bonus. I guess that's why I had level 32. Your screenshot looks even better than what I've seen on my DS!  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 12, 2009, 10:21:29 AM
I thought that was fixed in the beta sent last night?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 12, 2009, 10:29:05 AM
not in the lastest version I got :-D (stabed as clock 23:13 yesterday), its a very funny bug. We need a level -1 :-D as a secret bonus level.

I hope the alternative I thinked would suit the game better (and only if you want)?

Another idea is simply a "random" gamemode, like the H.E.R.O. game, only problem is the story got distrupted here, but all 50 levels (only with the bonues levels you unlocked) could been used. but I guess this is al ittle bit to extreme.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 12, 2009, 10:49:09 AM
I thought that was fixed in the beta sent last night?

So it means I'm not receiving betas regularly ;) I experienced it on the beta you sent me last Thursday...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 12, 2009, 10:58:46 AM
Will send new beta tonight... Sorry!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 12, 2009, 05:13:27 PM
What, you people finished both modes already?  ???

I couldn't see 'start from level 31' nor 32, I must have then the oldest beta in the crowd.  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 13, 2009, 06:30:35 AM
What, you people finished both modes already?  ???

You're kidding, I could barely complete first 3 LL and the first WW! I'm using a cheat! :P

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 13, 2009, 12:10:32 PM
you only see that if you completed both game modes, cheating or not. even in the newest version I got the bug  was still here :-D (version that created in 23:13 a clock), its one of the fun one anyway ;D.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 13, 2009, 07:18:47 PM
You're kidding, I could barely complete first 3 LL and the first WW! I'm using a cheat! :P

Ah, good. Well, I'm not that bad then, even though I have a list of levels that even cheats can't help me solve.  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 16, 2009, 06:16:56 AM
New beta has something weird  ??? ... or dunno. First, if you jump on a conveyor belt, Willy will turn the direction of the conveyor, it wasn't doing that with previous beta. Second, if Willy dies on a conveyor going left the tombstone with RIP written on it it's again flipped.

SF: I still hear click problems with the Egyptian theme, can you send me the 8 bit XM so that I can check it and eventually try to solve it? I've got some ideas... :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 06:48:27 AM
The conveyors you are talking about are in the Sam Coupe levels, yes? That is how that version worked, so, I had to make it work that way to!

The conveyors do cause a problem with the RIP anim though!! Argh! I will put a trap in for that..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 16, 2009, 06:52:15 AM
New beta has something weird  ??? ... or dunno. First, if you jump on a conveyor belt, Willy will turn the direction of the conveyor, it wasn't doing that with previous beta. Second, if Willy dies on a conveyor going left the tombstone with RIP written on it it's again flipped.

I've noticed this thing BUT it only happens on YF level and I don't think it was like that before? It works well on other levels with CBs, you can jump on belts and as long you hold direction you wish-all is fine, just YF is like this.

Also, tested the tombstone thing on belts and it worked fine for me except that on some belts/levels, the tombstone would not move (it moves on Hellraiser but not on Metropolis Bingo, for example).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 16, 2009, 06:53:00 AM
The conveyors you are talking about are in the Sam Coupe levels, yes? That is how that version worked, so, I had to make it work that way to!

I still didn't try those Sam Coupe levels, I noticed that behavior jumping on the roof of the lift/cage in MMWW, YF level... :-X

edit: Lobo was faster! :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 16, 2009, 06:54:29 AM
Also, forgot to say, tested on both emu/ds with those results.  8)

edit: Lobo was faster! :)



Lol!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 07:04:42 AM
That is strange? It would also affect the ghostbusters level with the car? Hmm I will investigate

and RIP as well.. This could only happen on a right conveyor hmm
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 16, 2009, 03:02:46 PM
Can it show some cheat modes hided somewhere in the bonus levels as eastereggs or messages?

Howover any cheatmodes enabled should disable the hiscore at all (no possible to write your name on endgame).

Some of these cheats could example been (to start with, these boing):
 - Unlimited Lives
 - Unlimited Air
 - No collision
 - Level Skip
 - Speed (if possible)
 - Spectrum/Sam Graphics on all levels, except bonus levels (retro style, even I like Lobo graphics very much) using spectrum(oldies.xm music.

I added more instruments to the intro for egyptian to trying to hide the clicks very much as possible. its only way I can do and works pretty fine. still cliks, not not really annoyring.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 16, 2009, 04:39:23 PM
That is strange? It would also affect the ghostbusters level with the car? Hmm I will investigate

and RIP as well.. This could only happen on a right conveyor hmm

Nope, it doesn't affect the ghostbusters conveyor nor car, they both work fine.
For a RIP, no flipping in my case at all, just those two levels that I've mentioned, the tombstone doesn't slide, oddly.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 05:35:24 PM
I found the slippy sliddy bug on YF - fixed.

RIP PIR - this was fixed a while ago, but... I was worried i had missed something in the conveyor code.. Phew!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 05:40:52 PM
Can it show some cheat modes hided somewhere in the bonus levels as eastereggs or messages?

Howover any cheatmodes enabled should disable the hiscore at all (no possible to write your name on endgame).

Some of these cheats could example been (to start with, these boing):
 - Unlimited Lives
 - Unlimited Air
 - No collision
 - Level Skip
 - Speed (if possible)
 - Spectrum/Sam Graphics on all levels, except bonus levels (retro style, even I like Lobo graphics very much) using spectrum(oldies.xm music.

I added more instruments to the intro for egyptian to trying to hide the clicks very much as possible. its only way I can do and works pretty fine. still cliks, not not really annoyring.

I think cheats will be devulged(?) only when say, WW is complete and you complete a Bonus level? Or something like that?

Not sure about adding more cheats, but.. A turbo mode (Lobo liked that) may be quite fun?

Adding and grabbing all the original graphics for the LL levels would be too much time for a retrograde step IMHO. We do have levels with original graphics in the bonus levels (Spectrum and Sam) so that is enough nostalgia i think - though it is open to votes if wished?

Thanks for your work on the Music and your tireless effort mate - really appreciate it!! Can't wait for Superheroes.. :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 16, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
TurboTurboTurboHahaha! Yes, that would be swell as an add on, if possible.

Umm..what's 'Superheroes'?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 06:18:27 PM
It is the completion music for WW.. From Rocky Horror.. It sorta follows on from the last level
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 16, 2009, 08:28:11 PM
Ah that, hah, I thought it was some kinda game or something.  :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 08:35:38 PM
The Superhero willy and the mutant tax inspectors from mars?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 16, 2009, 08:37:55 PM
haha :-D, just finished it, a really slow and nice piece mixed in MM theme (yep, again). Now I have only the completion LL tune left (which I have idea to use a another classic song) for completion all tunes for LL, WW and also one for bonues levels (could mightbeen use few more? like the short blagger tune using the original samples?). I might missing few others I can look on and eventuelly click fix on some tunes (the most important is fixed).

HeadKaze can you send me list of small jingles I should look for TDG, this game does not use heavy use of music and all important tunes is in. Its few of them, but that ok for that game.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 08:40:50 PM
Well done mate..

We still have plenty of memory left it you want to add anymore tunes LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 16, 2009, 10:32:23 PM
I do like the speed as it are now, but could been have something a speed cheat. Another fun cheat could change the color palette to black which like the 2 WW movies. That would not effect the gameplay.

I would love to see both A and B (which I would prefer as jump button) buttons could been used as the jump button.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 16, 2009, 10:41:55 PM
I can add B as another jump button.

Speed cheat is in the latest beta mate!! (l/r/l/r), though the code WILL be changed later! See, sometimes I listen!! LOL

At the moment, just Willy is turbo.. Not sure if it needs all to go really fast or not?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 17, 2009, 02:12:37 PM
Flash got before me, A was gonna to request a XMAS level as a bonus level :) and yes I have just did a nice xmas song for that level (I did first seen the level after I created the song). The main sprite might need some cleanup and seen he got scaled down?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 17, 2009, 09:28:24 PM
Well, at this point there are only two levels left before it's all done, so one of those two might be xmass themed somewhat. It's up to Flash to see then.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 17, 2009, 09:37:36 PM
Shh.. everything is secret...

oh..

2 levels yet... One will be a mad jumpy one, and the other is a ? er... hmmm.... um...

Oh god!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 18, 2009, 09:59:06 PM
Again today I diddent created anything, due I'm got sig again :-(. Hope doing things finished next week..... I only have one final piece left and eventuelly fixing other tunes as well mightbeen extra tune for all bonues levels not using SAM graphics (apart the snow ones) and the level complete (can the normal sound not been used as well some speech or claps?

So I hope this game can been finished this month, and mightbeen next month for the TDG?

How much left is really in the game?

Nice speed cheat, but would been found if He got some blur when he run so fast......

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 18, 2009, 10:04:48 PM
Sending out a new demo,

Can you check (anyone) on hardware?

It will not run on a DSTT card!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 19, 2009, 12:55:22 AM
The latest beta runs perfect on AK2. Haha, turbo mode is excellent!  :D
However, maybe only Willy should be turbo, not the enemies?

EDIT: One thing, The final barrier level, I see that spike thing is back down there where that key is, so...is that on purpose to make that key fake then?

One more thing, when you finish LL set, the top screen is screwed (missing victory text, just letter 'C' or something??), this is playing on hardware.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 12:04:36 PM
I checkout the newset beta soon and on hardware. I was something sig yesterday and little bit today, but I do created a studio version of the LL endtheme which is (lossy) based on a another classic, while using my own melody. Something Like I head ealier today a very great version of it on C64.

If Filesystem is used for the music to save memory (something like that way did for Warhawk), could the game been playable on DSTT? Its that card I normally seen selling in Denmark... Or some reason why it not run on that card?


Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 19, 2009, 12:28:59 PM
If Filesystem is used for the music to save memory (something like that way did for Warhawk), could the game been playable on DSTT? Its that card I normally seen selling in Denmark... Or some reason why it not run on that card?

Warhawk DS (EFS Version) works fine on the DSTT! So, yes, It would also work
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 19, 2009, 12:35:08 PM
The latest beta runs perfect on AK2. Haha, turbo mode is excellent!  :D
However, maybe only Willy should be turbo, not the enemies?

EDIT: One thing, The final barrier level, I see that spike thing is back down there where that key is, so...is that on purpose to make that key fake then?

One more thing, when you finish LL set, the top screen is screwed (missing victory text, just letter 'C' or something??), this is playing on hardware.

I think I will change just Willy to be turbo..

The Final Barrier is now possible with the spike. I had spent a couple of days working on the animation (as you know) and modifying the movement to get it as close to the original as possible. So, the spike is back!! LOL

The completion screen is in the process of me doing something with it. The letter is just a test of large character plotting and checking I have enough space. A story will appear on the top screen to close the LL episode and do a bit of a story to explain the WW episode.. It will work ok when done - I hope!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 19, 2009, 02:55:07 PM
The Final Barrier is now possible with the spike.

Easy for you to say, I need GOD mode for this one!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 04:35:50 PM
You changed the egyptian level, I think that new level should been a hidden bonus level (or was it just a test)? I like the other "original" egyptian level very much.

I confirm the problem spike is now possible to jump over in the barrier level...... Not easy, but possible.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 19, 2009, 05:28:15 PM
Yes, the level has been swapped with 'end of the world'.

Stuart Campbel wrote the original outline to the game and when published in RG he had put 'mummy daddy' in it's place as he wanted to break up the Oric levels in the article.. But.. he felt quite strongly that his original level pick should be restored to use in the game.
I personally prefer 'mummy daddy'..

Stu has promised (should a recap be published in RG) that he will mention why he made this descision.

So, still looking good though.

I have added a display for when you clear a bonus level and set a record. at the mo, all times are set at 2.30 mins. If anyone gets a chance to set a better than average time in a bonus level (dont worry about Horace, this will be changed slighlty to match the original level and make it fun for a speed run), please let me know the times (i dont want them too hard to beat though), just mins and secs will be great.
I think it will be fun to add some times to beat!

Also, the completion is coming on (LL). I decided to go for a textual story in the top screen of a few pages. This is slightly animated as it has wipes as a new page is displayed. At least it will link LL and WW modes.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 06:31:46 PM
The graphics on that level fell a bit unfinshed and with wrong platform colors and wrong enemy sprite? Or just me? I think it being worked out.

Yes I also might prefer "mummy daddy" too (I like that level), but that level could of course unlock "end of the world" (whcih the story by now clearly is made for a hidden level) which would been fun to speed run....

or it could been 21 levels instead of 20 levels?

I think 2:30 is nice start time, so you have possible to do some speed. Nice idea. Could the score and hiscore not been replace with the time and best time instead? No reason to do score here and can been removed.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 19, 2009, 06:51:01 PM
The score could be removed, but.. I think it makes it consistent.

With the times, I don't want to start them all on 2:30.. I would like to have a rough time set for each level to give players a reasonable time to beat!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 06:58:32 PM
I have to say I do NOT like the level changed, since the article clearly used "Mummy Daddy" as level 3, and I would except that would been followed the officiel article as its are (even it was meant for a another level, he did NOT do that when the article got publised).

Gamers simply except to play the same levels used in the article too!

Instead the Out of the World (which the graphics need some more work on that side, but still can use the egyptian theme) should been a bonus level instead, of course unlocked from  the Mummy Daddy level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 19, 2009, 07:06:41 PM
I have to say I do NOT like the level changed, since the article clearly used "Mummy Daddy" as level 3, and I would except that would been followed the officiel article as its are (even it was meant for a another level, he did NOT do that when the article got publised).

Gamers simply except to play the same levels used in the article too!

Instead the Out of the World (which the graphics need some more work on that side, but still can use the egyptian theme) should been a bonus level instead, of course unlocked from  the Mummy Daddy level.
The story at the bottom with fit it all together.

My intention was to follow Stu's plan. This was originally different from the article and he has asked for this amendment. I liked the original level, but... The level swap is more in line with Stu's original vision. This is also a sandy level and works well to keep the creepy figures from the first level to tie it all together.

Mummy Daddy does work really well as a timed bonus level. Though I must set some times on them!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 07:09:47 PM
but was not in the article all people have read which have the magazine.... Some people might fell wrong.

I trying to beat some times.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: RevStu on October 19, 2009, 07:36:11 PM
Gamers simply except to play the same levels used in the article too!

Gamers have no right to "expect" anything, this isn't their game. The only reason Mummy Daddy went in the Retro Gamer piece was to break up a big block of Oric levels which wouldn't have looked good on the page. In my original vision of The Lost Levels way back in 2004, it was The End Of The World which appeared between The Airlock and Hall Of The Mountain Kong.

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/mmspecial.htm

It makes far more narrative sense there, and it's a much better level. Mummy Daddy is a lot more suited to being a time-trial bonus stage, because it has much more scope for improving times due to the larger number of enemies.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 08:04:00 PM
The new level still need some graphics work on the foreground. I think the background is nice, but would been nice to see a little pyramid (could been a little one) in the background and let the witch to been replaced by the skull (from the Daddy Mummy level) and the black platform mightbeen more bright? Elsewise it feel more a arabian theme than egyptian theme. The Cruncing platform in the start is not easy to see and have died a lot here, while the rest is pretty easy.

Also I completed first 9 bonus levels with I shorted the titles and the times was:
 - ho: 30 secs.
 - bl: 48 secs.
 - Re: 53 secs.
 - Ch: 47 secs.
 - Ny: 32 secs.
 - Bi: 66 secs.
 - Bo: 56 secs.
 - Ro: 46 secs.
 - My: 44 secs.

In the Horace level:

 In the most time, I mostly just jump over the plant and the star without taking the star. Was that in the original, because that its really annorying when that happens?

Yes I need a little jingle for the halt screen :-D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 19, 2009, 08:36:27 PM
I don't understand what you mean by 'not egyptian', seems quite suitable to me. Are you talking about 'Mummy Daddy' level or something else?
Unfortunately, the latest beta doesn't work on either emus or hardware so I'm lost at seeing what you're pointing to exactly.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 08:55:37 PM
My newest beta works fine in emulator? The times I got was played on the no$gba emulator (or did I got a another beta?) and not on my real hardware (have not pulled the acecard out yet). I talked about the new out of the world level (the level 3 was just replaced in the newest beta). It somewhere "coldere" than excepted. A little pyramid in the bg (sunked into the ground) and a skull (you have allready one) instead of witch can also do the job.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 19, 2009, 09:12:43 PM
This is the latest beta I got today which doesn't work at all on either DS nor emu, just everything scrambled kinda so can't tell exactly. I'm guessing you're talking about the level with sand in the background?
If that was the case, I wasn't so sure if that one had anything to do with 'Egypt' specifically, Flash has asked for a sand bkg only so I went with that. In case it has something to do with some specific place then he has to tell me about it and I'll see what I can do.
Also, I don't understand what do you mean by 'witch', if it's enemy than it's up to Flash to change it into something more relevant to the level, maybe mummy head/walking mummy/spiders/skull, etc. There's a ton of enemies in there to choose from.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 09:18:35 PM
Personly it should still been a real egyptian level (outside or inside a pyramid does not bother me), but you might not seen the level yet. for me only final screen is scramled the text (as he have pointed out, so no problems here), but its was the beta I got yesterday danish time. You might have got a even newer beta.

Flash might known better :-D. It just what I think when I saw that level and giving construvetive feedback.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 19, 2009, 10:43:32 PM
Well done on the times for me..

I will round them up a little and use them as a starting time.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 10:55:07 PM
I could do levels something faster and these was times when I first completed the level and did not tried to improve the time which was not intended to do here, but nice idea to round little bit up. Time Attack is fun and a fun idea. I see I got complete rest of the finished level (from the metoer level) and also got the music done.

Godnight.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 19, 2009, 11:16:37 PM
Ah, just got the working latest beta, all is fine. :D
I've checked that level, third one and it's description has nothing to do with 'egypt' or similar so I would leave it as it is as it looks good being dark like that (unless Flash has something story related to add to it?). The only thing might be to put different enemy instead of the witch though.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 19, 2009, 11:28:47 PM
This is due with the music I want the level more Egyptian inspirited, since I used a fair amount of time to fix the clicks issues on that song and is one of my favorits song. Elsewise cold.xm would now make more seance (which used in "the end?" level), due both levels theme is very similar. Mightbeen theme on these 2 levels should swapped now?

I think story should follow regular as regular, even the level got swapped and let the level 3 text used in the new level used something like that in "mummy daddy" why it got swapped....

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 20, 2009, 08:23:45 AM
Yesterday evening I was testing the latest beta I received on the hardware and I noticed some -minor- problems.
The first is that in the 'audio options' the screens both flicker when you change tune. And there's a red line in the bottom of the screen (you can notice it in the emulator also, but on hardware it appears much more)

Conveyor belts problems on YF level seems gone now. BTW it's funny that if Willy dies on the lower conveyor his tombstone moves on it and that doesn't happen if Willy dies on the upper conveyor instead.  ??? Not a big problem, you know.

Going to run more tests this evening, hopefully.

Bye!

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 20, 2009, 09:03:50 AM
Hmm...

Found the red line problem, but have no idea about the flicker changing tunes? Does this happen when altering volume etc?

Has anyone else noticed this?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 20, 2009, 11:11:11 AM
have no idea about the flicker changing tunes? Does this happen when altering volume etc?

Dunno if it happens also when changing sfx volume, going to check this eve. But it does flicker when you change tune. Both (!) screens.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 20, 2009, 12:02:19 PM
its does not flicker on the emulator, but it does on my acecard II (on most tunes but not on all) as well on hardware and only when selecting tunes, and yes the redline is more viewable on the hardware. Its not completly annoyring, so I guess is a minor bug.

I trying to see I can complete rest of the levels. The final LL tune would propenty use 10 channels = the only song that use 10 channels due delay effects (and seen clicks very little but this time none annorying). Have started on XM version of it.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 20, 2009, 12:58:48 PM
more times:

::CM::
Around 46-47 secs, but the level have some issues...

but the level is not fair (died just before the door due fireball). Dont set the keys and door completly to the right, because you have not a change to avoid fireball which is allways appear random from the right screen.

::TH::
52 secs, took some tries and this time should easy been beaten.

::CO::
48 secs (removed text which was for a another level), this level is clean.

:: TH ::
45 secs (I like that level and good time trail level.

:: BU ::
43 secs (A really good time on that level, since I got a good start on that hard level).

:: WA ::
52 secs. I managed to complete the level......

:: WO ::
35 secs

:: AH ::

1. how do I take the top 2 keys? The top spikes got them impossible to take. See next post.

2. I dosent like the tile gap on the bottom ground, because you allways trying to jump over it even not required, result is you die.

ANOTHER EDIT: I got the level in 1:14 secs, so possible to complete depite some small issues.

:: EW ::
52 secs, this is a very fun time trail level.

:: JU ::
After I got the top right key (only the key I missing is that last key just with the door), Im are totally stuck and not sure how to fall down without die, and is also impossible to jump over the 2 monsters from the top platform? I would see 2 chruncing platforms left of the top platform, or easier way to fall down to the ground get back again to fix that little issue...

:: FI ::
56 secs
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 20, 2009, 01:25:10 PM
Not sure what you mean about the Christmas level?

The two top keys can be got by the wrap around screen. The righthand one you must get last and fall to the exit.

What do you mean about the gaps at the bottom? you do have to jump them.

Thanks for the times, I will update the times in the game with them.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 20, 2009, 01:30:18 PM
I can still not complete that xmas level, due but seen have some issues (time was 1:14):

1. When he stop on the very bottom to the left, you need to jump completly to the left platform, before you can turn. Just a very very minor issue.

2. He fall throght the little hill on the right middle screen (just after I passed the bird second time), where you need to get top again to get the evil top key. There is no gap here, so he should just stop and not fall...

3. If you jump of the very bottom left platform (right for the left bottom key), you die.

Also I updated some text on the times I giving and changed a comment.

The quit key using the shoulder bottom can been annoyring (only happens with cheat mode on and in time trail levels).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 20, 2009, 02:40:59 PM
sorrry these many edits, but this is due I was just currectly play the levels and tried them again later. While I played I found a little issue on hardware:

There is a little lag (around 100-200 mili secs or such), when you press on jump button and seen happens on all levels. This only happens once per each level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 20, 2009, 06:13:17 PM
Thanks,

I will look into it mate. Cheers!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 20, 2009, 08:18:52 PM
The quit key using the shoulder bottom can been annoyring (only happens with cheat mode on and in time trail levels).
That is because it is level skip and on a bonus level there is only one level.

I will look into the issues on the Christmas level.

Thanks again for the times.. I have rounded (mostly) to the nearest 5 secs for people to get a chance. Though I have copied your times to a text file and when I get a chance, I will see how close they are (Ie. how hard to beat) and adjust them down a little if I can.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 20, 2009, 09:11:53 PM
Yes I need a little jingle for the halt screen :-D

I solved that for the game I'm working on right now. I'm using a recording from a forrest complete with birds chirping. Doesn't fit the game at all but I think it's pretty funny to have the contrast of something so pleasant and serene in a game with monsters and shooting in space. :D

And I would like to apologize for not having been very active online lately, but the reason is of course that I'm crunching to finish my own game before the end of the month. I haven't even tried the last few MMLL betas and I feel terrible about it. I tend to wear blinkers when I'm nearing the end of development on a game, so my focus is usually pretty narrow at those times. :/ But if nothing else than I will definitely play the finished game...perhaps some later betas if the game isn't finished this month.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 21, 2009, 07:06:42 AM
There is a little lag (around 100-200 mili secs or such), when you press on jump button and seen happens on all levels. This only happens once per each level.

Oh, you also noticed that? I always failed to make the first jump in each level (maybe because I'm pressing and releasing the jump key too fast) and I thought it was a problem with the button on my console! Thanks!

About that flickering: I suspect you're refreshing the screens right after the uncompress and load of the tune, so maybe the screens aren't v-blanking in that moment. You could add a swiWaitForVBlank() or whatever you're using for that purpose :)

Last thing: I always forget to tell you that -in my opinion- in the YF level the switch that moves the lift/cage and reverse the conveyors should be disabled (gets burned?) after the first use... as it is now, people would expect to reverse conveyors again with it, since the switch itself keeps on working (it goes up and down each time you touch it... and you can -hear- it's switching!). Well, not a big problem, anyway... it's that I'm kind of perfectionist ;) lol :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 21, 2009, 07:50:30 AM
I first noticed that button problem when I was played on very last bonus level when there was some lag when I tried to jump the bottm monster.

bonus levels can been anything :-D, and I really like the high jumping level too, just to bad I got stuck here at the top right (the only level I missing a time), so I could not set a time..... There missing something :-D

My times should been able to been beaten if you add 5 secs and then round up to near five. Only BU level I think you shoulf set a 55 as start time I think. The CM might require some sound alert before fireing a fireball, so you have a change to avoid the fireballs when you are on right screen, but that time was wrote here because I just died before the door (I was about 1 tile from it).

The first times was on the emulator and the second post of times was on hardware using newest version (but should not matter).

I like the hell tune you used in one of the level. Works awesome here.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 22, 2009, 11:50:29 AM
01:07 for the Joy level. It took some tries. I dont think you need double layed chruncing platform, but just remove the top ones?

I think the end level text page too fast? Not all can read fast? Mightbeen somethink "press button to page" after a while? Nice idea and story.

There is some clicks on the end song as well, but I dont think its annoyring here this time, since it not a normal clicks?
Fixed, this time might been the sample and not really a click issue this time....

I think the lobo09 signature should been the same as on the title screen on both the ends screens, since we got credited now here as well?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 22, 2009, 01:45:00 PM
I think the end level text page too fast? Not all can read fast? Mightbeen somethink "press button to page" after a while? Nice idea and story.

On the latest version (not sent out as yet), you can use left/right l/r to move forward and back a page at will. I will extend the auto-flip delay a bit, but I want the credits to flow automatically really. Then you can always use 'left' to go back a page if needed.

Thanks for the tune fix.. Hopefully it is ok now (though I had not noticed the clicks)

Also, can I have one more tune pretty please? Just something to play on the 'bonus completion' screen? Not sure what? Perhaps a tune that is slow (if you do not get a record) and a faster version of it (if you do get a record), what do you think?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 22, 2009, 02:26:42 PM
I known I missing these tunes :-D. I think what I do..... Might been some clap sample when got a record and see yihaa or something like?

The music is something long, so a longer page delay would not been a issue here.

The clicks might not been here if you not sure what to hear after, since it was diffecent this time.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 22, 2009, 08:19:06 PM
Ok, I have been working hard this evening on lots of LITTLE things.

will you notice? who knows...

Rev.Stu has just sent me some wonderful descriptions for the bonus levels that really do - flesh it out..

I will send a demo out tonight..

This demo will have ALL extras in their initial state.. That means, to find bonus levels, activation is needed. WW is locked and you can only start from LL level 1. (though you can cheat to unlock more). Also, the audio screen will ONLY play music you have heard.

This is to check that all is ok there and to give you a chance to find bonus levels and see if this works ok?

A sample will be added for when a bonus is unlocked and also a few more samples will also be added to the game. This will come later.

I am hoping I can iron all out by Sunday night for a Monday release - it is looking hopeful at the moment.

(audio flicker is still present though :( )
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 22, 2009, 08:20:46 PM
also, once EVERY level is unlocked, the title will flick through all 50 levels.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 22, 2009, 08:58:07 PM
I still we should wait a release to the halloween 31 October? Its only 9 days left, so we have a week final test with all things locked as it was released (or by using cheat codes, these that is in should been a bit more compliced)?

I just sent a halt.xm

Then I work on the TDG game music to do that finished, but I guess only few is missing now, and only something jingles (its not that much music here than MMLL)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 22, 2009, 09:22:34 PM
Thanks mate, have not had a chance to check it out yet.

where is it for?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 22, 2009, 10:43:56 PM
Checked it out...

Really nice, like the bit at the very end!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 22, 2009, 11:25:44 PM
the tune played in halt screen after completling the horac bonus levels played totally wrong? I like to use halt.xm here.... it was not on the last beta. Hence why used the tite tune there.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 24, 2009, 06:43:45 PM
since it look like hidden levels is in samme order allways regaards which level you did it (horace example do allways unlock first), I would like to checkout all bonues again to see the last fixes got fixed (due no saving).

Here a cheat code could do that.

In the final cheat codes should been longer?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 24, 2009, 08:11:36 PM
The final cheat codes are longer. The 'turbo' on has been changed and the is told to you when you complete WW. The skip level cheat will not be told. This will be left for people to discover.

I will send another (sorry) demo tonight.

There has been a lot of work on the bonus completions and (thanks to Stu) these now have trivia about MM as well, so there is a little bit more for you to see/read.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 24, 2009, 09:30:45 PM
title screen: would been nice to a slow, medium or fast scrolling.... or even backwards. Personly te normal speed is even fine.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 24, 2009, 10:28:22 PM
Press L or R shoulder buttons... you have 2 speeds.. :) (beat ya - thanks Stu)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 27, 2009, 07:25:49 PM
Now after the txt file have been fixed (it was messed off in Notepad) I finally think we have done? Thanks for "playing" and it was great and fun to do this (music) project.

Now I can move fully into The Dectective Game, if there is anything I can do here. I might do something with Warhawk, but I do guess I would do XM music for eventuelly Warhawk II (mightbeen for DS as well IPhone?).


Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 27, 2009, 07:33:01 PM
I think, if we ever did do warhawk II, it would be on both... :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 28, 2009, 08:44:11 AM
I forgot one thing: thank you very much for the xmas bonus level. I'm a huge fan of that beagle and his friends :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 28, 2009, 08:47:14 AM
"sweet"

Who isn't?

LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Cid2Mizard on October 28, 2009, 10:06:38 AM
Very good game, you made a good job, thank you all  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 28, 2009, 11:16:45 AM
we could do a Horace DS game using the bonus level as engine? So we could reuse very much of it in meantime HeadKaze got his game finished.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 28, 2009, 11:37:05 AM
I need a little break from DS coding for a little while.

I was ribbing Sokurah about Horace, much as it would make a nice DS game, it does need a quitedifferent mechanic to be converted correctly... Who knows?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 28, 2009, 11:51:14 AM
Of course.

There is still that DSi card issue (if I named correctly), or was that a headkaze job? Can that not been utility by a file system for the music and mightbeen levels?

Should you not release a new video trailer?

PS. Can you add a Manic Miner menu to the top left menu on the frontscreen (as well TDG)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 28, 2009, 12:19:52 PM
I need a little break from DS coding for a little while.

and

Quote
Should you not release a new video trailer?

means Flash is going to make a new video? ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 28, 2009, 12:30:06 PM
I gonna think the youtube video should been updated to reflect with the newest release.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 28, 2009, 12:36:10 PM
He still owes us and the community a video of his Tim Curry impersonation in the shower (I don't forget anything).  :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 28, 2009, 01:59:07 PM
He still owes us and the community a video of his Tim Curry impersonation in the shower (I don't forget anything).  :P
Did I not post that?

A MMLL youtube video is not possible at the moment sadly. The quad core pc died and I have been working from a 13" Macbook for a while. This is not powerful enough to emulate and grab video at 30fps. It stutters really badly.

I am happy for anyone else to make one though? ? ? ?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 28, 2009, 02:15:17 PM
Did I not post that?

Nope, slacker.

As for the video, I gave up on that recording business, tried to capture meself playing Warhawk on C64 emu on iphone some time ago and failed miserably at holding two things at once, someone else might try to make MMLL video  though.  :(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 28, 2009, 03:08:37 PM
I don't even know where to start, I always asked a friend ...  :(

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 28, 2009, 03:15:55 PM
Sadly, It does not look like I have any :(

I will see what I can do!

I can tie shoelaces, drink through a straw, and walk down stairs backwards... So, how hard can it be?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 28, 2009, 04:02:52 PM
Sadly, It does not look like I have any :(

No pants? That is sad.  :(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 28, 2009, 04:09:50 PM
No, just checked the Tim Curry bathtime video, and if you look closely you can see a slight glimpse of my pubic hair. So, sadly after all that work.. I will just have to delete it - I cannot subject the public to a stray, brash, and ungodly pubic display.


I will see if I can get a MMLL video together?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 29, 2009, 05:53:47 PM
Okay we have some early download stats in for anyone interested..

ManicMinerLL.zip - 205 downloads
ManicMinerLL_FAT.zip - 110 downloads
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 05:57:39 PM
That is a great start,

Sadly, several sites have hosted again rather than linking :( and also, propagation of the RR news item was not very good this time, I think it was swamped with the other MM news at the time :(

But, still great!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 29, 2009, 07:05:00 PM
typical around hosting. the news on RR is small but it still nice. They could linked to the annonce link to the othe news when the game got annonced to been created....

There is to MM games released between few days....

I cannot test the other MM game as well, since my older phone have a little to small screen and it does not work on touch screen mobiles. So I have not a change aroudn music, but I known java have never been that good to sound.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 29, 2009, 07:12:58 PM
Has anyone played that mobile release of MM? It would be interesting to get feedback on the gameplay.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 29, 2009, 07:21:59 PM
I which I would. There is a lots of mobile emulators which should run this game, but have not tried it, due my old mobile the screen to small and the newest one is the touch screen phone.

I saw a little rewiew of this game (by Blerk):
http://www.eurogamer.net/forum_thread_posts.php?thread_id=165297 (there a little review of it in the comments)

He diddent like the first level which is still too hard compared the fellow levels..... Yes its not very easy first level to start with? I remember the spectrum original level is a quite hard too, so?

He do like the possible to start from the lastest level.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 07:32:01 PM
I love how they say it is not quite right? Madness.. The detection is the same as the original, the only difference is it is faster and also the you move every pixel, rather that 2 each time. Some people like to have something to nit pick even if they have no idea what it is.. LOL

Oh well.. The first level is bloody easy now! (it was not when I first tried it).. A few goes and you can learn it, wasnt that what MM was all about originally, or am i nit picking  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 07:34:02 PM
One thing I said at the start was that I wanted an updated version of MM.. It is quicker and slicker.. That is all. Even the anims tie in with the pixel possitions exactly the same.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 07:54:38 PM
Don't take anyone's personal opinions as de facto  standard of game's quality. Some people simply wont like it, even the game is absolutely fantastic in every possible way.
I'm pretty sure that Matthew Smith would approve.  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 08:02:38 PM
Ah, also, I wanted to try the mobile one but realized I've lost my emulator (on PC). Not so sure if that one would even support this as it was quite oldie. Anyone can point to some coolio emu for bloody cellphones?

As for RR, they did a great job, you know the people over there are most likely our biggest supporters (and cunts :)) and mixing it with other MM games, I think, was quite a cool move actually. It's sorta historical coincidence if you will.
Ten years from now, when you're 98, cough, you'll be looking back at it and say - " Nurse...nurse...", or "Ahh...it was like yesterday, 6 MM games released at the same time, it was like this........"

 ;D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 08:24:19 PM
Ah, also, I wanted to try the mobile one but realized I've lost my emulator (on PC). Not so sure if that one would even support this as it was quite oldie. Anyone can point to some coolio emu for bloody cellphones?

As for RR, they did a great job, you know the people over there are most likely our biggest supporters (and c**ts :)) and mixing it with other MM games, I think, was quite a cool move actually. It's sorta historical coincidence if you will.
Ten years from now, when you're 98, cough, you'll be looking back at it and say - " Nurse...nurse...", or "Ahh...it was like yesterday, 6 MM games released at the same time, it was like this........"

 ;D
94... God! get it right!!

In a way it was nice to get in amongst the flux of the MM releases, but it would have been nice to have had a news item all to ourselves. What I was saying was that witin mins of the WHDS news post, sites all had it, this time, lots are still just the beta releae and have not updated there news page. Perhaps it was my fault for not doing a Vid this time. That does always help presentation. I couldn't though :(

The main thing for me is that I feel MMLL is the freshest MM game in years. This has also been commented on a forum somewhere. Ours is not a run of the mill conversion. If you want that, Emulation of the original is the way to go!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 08:49:26 PM
Of course it's the freshest, it came out 2 days ago you silly!  ;D

Well, MMLL did get its own spot, plus the announcements from a few months ago or so was there for quite a long time. That means that really anyone interested in this game HAS already got it, or discovered it. The rest will be downloading the infamous DEMO as I see that in search to be the most displayed result, quite sadly.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 08:55:24 PM
Of course it's the freshest, it came out 2 days ago you silly!  ;D

Well, MMLL did get its own spot, plus the announcements from a few months ago or so was there for quite a long time. That means that really anyone interested in this game HAS already got it, or discovered it. The rest will be downloading the infamous DEMO as I see that in search to be the most displayed result, quite sadly.

Well.. there is a lesson to be learnt there for me sadly... Bit to late now.

er, what was it? Don't what? Oh, I forget..

CUNTS
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 09:04:11 PM
er, what was it? Don't what? Oh, I forget..

c**tS

Bitches...forgot too.  :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 29, 2009, 09:18:15 PM
he did like the game throught and is a really fair review I think. For me when you first try the first level, that level can been a bit hard, but when you first got it, it became really easy next time.

The only mistake is you got release the early alpha here at forum which is a no go (some find it actuelly anyway). That why I diddent want to do the same with the music.

There is no reason to do a full announcements at Retro Remakes again, since the game did got a full announcements some month ago.

For the graphics, I did have same "problem" with my H.E.R.O. Game. some simply wanted the old graphics even the new one did look fine. Finally I dedicated to include the both graphics sets. For doing remakes I normally prefer new grahpics. I do like MMLL do have some old graphics as well in some levels.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 09:31:40 PM
he did like the game throught and is a really fair review I think. For me when you first try the first level, that level can been a bit hard, but when you first got it, it became really easy next time.

The only mistake is you got release the early alpha here at forum which is a no go (some find it actuelly anyway). That why I diddent want to do the same with the music.

There is no reason to do a full announcements at Retro Remakes again, since the game did got a full announcements some month ago.

For the graphics, I did have same "problem" with my H.E.R.O. Game. some simply wanted the old graphics even the new one did look fine. Finally I dedicated to include the both graphics sets. For doing remakes I normally prefer new grahpics. I do like MMLL do have some old graphics as well in some levels.

The idea was to try and do something different and thanks to that tosser Lobo, more work went in to adding the WW levels and then bonus levels.
Then someone suggested timers on the bonus levels - so more work...

In the end, between all of us, I honestly believe that we ended up with one of the best MM remakes so far. It has a lot to it and some of the best graphics and also the original graphics for some levels. So, you get a bit of everything.

plus, you get a story.. A first for a MM game.

I have done some updates to the game. ALL bugs mentioned have been fixed and there are some minor additions. IE. on the title screen, when you select a level, it will now show you if that level still has a hidden bonus level in it. So, now you can make sure you find them all..

I may use the engine at some point to do an 'anthology' using the original graphics.. But.. really not sure.. Do I want to spend weeks doing something for free - again? LOL

I do need a little rest!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 09:38:23 PM
Most people will appreciate it, some wont, can't care less about 'some'. That's the nature of things. The saddest cases are where people just have this need to dissect the game cause something bothers them personally. In that case they usually miss out the fun completely!

The way I look at other people's stuff is in 'like it/not like it', for whatever reason. Everything in the gray area is those 'ohh, music could be more like AC/DC, graphics could be like..more..Yellow and...' that kinda shit which is nothing but 'Make me a game that I want!' kinda thing, not really improve over existing game.

Of course, even black/white approach can yield a 'This bug needs a fix' and that is fine and desirable but structural changes to game Mechanics, Design and Overall Feeling ('Oh..dunno, just don't have THAT feeling, Marry') is an utter and unacceptable shit.

So..with that said, regardless how it goes in the future and whether it gets advertised or 4000000000 downloads or whether Flash finally makes a video with him prancing in a pink bunny attire, the fact stays that this is one of the best games ever made that YOUR MONEY CAN'T BUY on DS, 'homebrew or moneybrew'.

Capiche?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 09:47:02 PM
You have made me feel all warm and squidgy! But that could be because I though it was Wind, it wasn't :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 09:52:42 PM
Yes, darling, now about that Bunny suit...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 29, 2009, 10:01:26 PM
review is.... a review :).


What is th next game? any plans?

Do you plans to do a DS game again, might been a smaller one?

Mightbeen a game for both DS and IPhone, where DS version could been free and the IPhone can cost money with exclusive features or such?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 10:12:06 PM
Really not sure at the moment..


Hmmmm..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 10:57:21 PM
review is.... a review :).

That was no review, just a personal opinion as reviews are usually longer than half a paragraph  ;).

The next game is Rambo, for money, I'm negotiating with Sly as we speak.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on October 29, 2009, 11:05:51 PM
The main thing for me is that I feel MMLL is the freshest MM game in years.

Not only that, but what I also really like is that it just feels RIGHT and I desperately hope I can match the feel of the original when I do HITMW because my two earlier platformers didn't feel that much like the orginal. For what it's worth though - they were both made within a short timespan for competitions. On the other hand they can't be that bad because one won the 11th place in the compo and they are both the two of my games that has generated the most downloads. But there's no pressure on Horace (except for the constant pressure from Flash :)) so I can take my time to get it right.


Of course it's the freshest, it came out 2 days ago you silly!  ;D

Hmm, didn't it come out on the same day as the one for mobile phones? ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 29, 2009, 11:15:58 PM
So, Horace?

To coin a phrase,

"Is it done yet?"
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 29, 2009, 11:31:10 PM

Hmm, didn't it come out on the same day as the one for mobile phones? ;)

It came out on 27th, at least here in Estados Unidos, I think mobile one as well or on 28th early on with a morning dew.


EDIT: I meant, the mobile one either came on 27th as well or early on 28th.

EDIT: I meant, oh crap!

Is it done yet? Anything? Done? Yet?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 30, 2009, 01:42:23 AM
I may use the engine at some point to do an 'anthology' using the original graphics.. But.. really not sure.. Do I want to spend weeks doing something for free - again? LOL

I do need a little rest!

Just incase people are mistaken into thinking there are lots of generous people out there on the Net who donate money for projects like this; since Warhawk's release we've had a single donation of $5 US. I've also made a total of $11 AUD in advertising since opening the website. In other words Flash and I have spent much more than that on hosting than we'll ever see in donations. So call it an act of love but there is only so long one can write free software (and I've been doing it for several years now). I just hope the whole team comes along with us when we move to iPhone and hopefully make a bit of money from the hard work. Unfortunatly there is another rather large investment required to build iPhone apps, including a MacBook, iPhone and iStore registration!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 30, 2009, 04:12:21 AM
Hah, I'm surprised you even made that fiver! Must be some very generous soul out there.
I'm in for iphone as I'm also tired of all the free crapola and sweating for the sake of it. Wanna play it? Pay for it dammit, then you buy yourself a right to bitch about it as well or be as loud as fish!

The anonymous appreciation with a frickin fiver through donations or words model just doesn't work anymore. Actually it never worked. Time to start appreciating time and effort with $$<this. It's about eliminating that shitty aspect of waiting for some 'award' or something for the kind of work being done. Reality is...noone frickin knows but you and noone can respect it unless you start charging for it.

So, fuckado the DS and homebrew and all the free stuff, I'll rather spend my free time bird watching.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 30, 2009, 07:37:12 AM
The main thing for me is that I feel MMLL is the freshest MM game in years.

I'd add that it's also one of the best DS homebrew games I've ever seen, speaking about the overall quality. Of course from my point of view, I'm into this only since two years and a couple of months but I think I've seen almost everything that this world has offered so far. And you're a very good team so whatever you're going to do -develop iPhone apps or not- I'm sure we'll see exceptional things again. :)

What about me... well, I'm curious about the iPhone, of course, but what I really don't want to do is to turn an hobby into an occupation, I need something I can call my passion and not my work, I'm sure you understand what I mean even if my English isn't perfect. So I'll be surely going on coding on the DS for pleasure and I'll be happy to be part of another project of yours if you'll make it (and if you need it!)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Cid2Mizard on October 30, 2009, 08:20:48 AM
Good Works on DSi with Acekard2i, the game is very hard !
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on October 30, 2009, 11:15:44 AM
Apple have not do very cheap to start to programmering to the IPhone, I have not a change to get a Mac and a registration soon and not even have a IPhone. I also donny think Apple like assembly as well? It would cost a bit too many money. I wish Apple was proud to let programemring do on Windows or even Linux, but not. I gonna think they have a bit too much control what theier costumers do (even I liked they removed the drm in Itunes, which is why I use that now, even it might have watermarked files instead it does not bother me).

I would do like to see a game released both DS as well IPhone. There is no reason to do a demo to IPhone, if you do the game for free to DS.

Howover we could just create a regular PC Windows/Linux game (mightbeen even in a oldscholl 320x240/320x200 resoulution with scanline support)? Could been fun.

sverx I think we should play at the opera night :-D. I not even where you really life (not sure9?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 30, 2009, 11:33:04 AM
Yes, starting development on the iPhone is not cheap and it is a shame that Apple have not enabled the SDK to work on Windows. It would mean you would only need a dev licence and iphone/ipod. Shame. I am lucky as I bought them prior to MMLL.. Sorted.

X-Code is the dev environment for coding on Apple and is pretty sweet. The iphone SDK does allow the use of ASM (inline), and perhaps that may come in handy for intensive tasks to make our software stand out? But... I really have to knuckle down and get to grips with the demon spawn that is C. A lot relies on that, so much as I would LOVE to dev in ARM on the iPhone, I must learn C before anything and not get sidetracked by dreams of iPhone ASM :(

Regarding HK and Lobo's earlier posts - I agree.. It has been nice to develop Freeware and has enabled both myself and HK to learn a lot about the DS and game coding in general (I had forgotten so much). It also has had the benefit of getting a great team together, a team that I really hope will follow us to iPhone and who knows what else?
I may tinker with another MM game, but.. Not yet and not involving new music, graphics, and code. Just built upon what we already have.

But.. I need a break and a little rest for now. I think 2 (and hopefully) 3 games in 12 months is great! Time to make the basterds pay!! LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on October 30, 2009, 12:51:09 PM
I not even where you really life

Italy. And I don't think I would like to code for the PC again, I gave up with that 12 years ago 8) I'm really loving now this console thing and, as I said, I'm not planning to make any money with it, just have fun. Beside that I'm curious about the iPhone programming... how much is that for everything you need for that? You need a Mac, an iPhone and that SDK and that's everything?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 30, 2009, 01:00:35 PM
Yep,

Mac, iPhone, SDK (free), and a developer licence.

and... a lot of patience! LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 30, 2009, 08:17:03 PM
It has turned into a job, something that started as a hobby. I'll just briefly mention that my MMLL folder has 319 image files or so, take into account that lots of these are one file with multiple frames of animations, which amounts to hundreds and you'll see that it's not a hobby anymore. Hobby was to put together something to relax after a day at work, spend a week or so on it and done. It's not like that, production of MMLL or Warhawk and some other things I've been doing lately makes my actual job relaxing in comparison! :D

Also, I would not advise to quit your day job over development on iPhone or any console just yet, unless of course you hit some jackpot. It's still interesting cause it's a new and alien platform, plus you have the opportunity to see actually if it can work in the new concept, someone actually buying it against the cat-mouse concept on freeware release.

As for the Apple, they did the most logical thing that any business does by pushing their platform, development, store out there. Nothing that MSoft, Nintendo and Sony haven't been doing for decade or so.
For that, my hat off is to Apple, not because they 'love' the community, nobody goes into such business with love in mind, they simply did the right from things that their competitors did wrong.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 30, 2009, 09:03:51 PM
I only work 62 hours a week, so... hoping to cover both that and iPhone development. I do not really want to dev on iPhone for financial reward personally (though that would be nice), I want to work on that platform because it is a new opening and may inspire. Though, dev'n on the iPhone WILL be a commercial endeavor. And after all this work that has gained nothing for anyone... (except that git HK got $5 Grrr... LOL), it will be nice to break into something else.

Lobo, I know Warhawk, TDG, and MMLL have been a lot of work (for all of us), but there is surely satisfaction? You mention the work involved, but no mention of any plus to the projects. I remember that you said you did not like MM, but you must have a soft spot for this one?

Well.. I will say what I have said before.. 'Hopefully we will stay together as a team for financial development on other platforms, starting with the iPhone, and going - who knows where?'

I also agree with you on one aspect - freeware downloaders are quite often c**ts who have no appreciation for the amount of work and effort goes into these projects. My wife threatened to leave me on several occasions and I am left with the misery that the MMLL project has come to a close and the money grabbing bitch is still here!!! LOL.

I spent 3.5 months on MMLL and worked EVERY day and night on it in one way or another (check the SVN commits - http://code.google.com/p/manicminerll/updates/list?start=200 and this does not show them all), Lobo and SF have been passing gfx and music updates like wildfire, and what comes at the end?
Well, if only a handful of people say (and they have) 'This is the best DS homebrew game', 'This should be a commercial release, I would buy it'.. etc, then I am happy and glad that this team is capable of so much.

This leads me on to another point. We have been together for 3 projects and worked well together. Perhaps we would make a great team for bigger things.. And I am not talking MMLL with 51 levels.

Who knows, but so far it has at least been fun and frustration in equal measures, but the end result always fills me with glee. I gave up coding 15 years ago and in that time looked at some of the stuff I had coded and thought 'how the f**k did I code that', well I think in 2 projects I have done my best coding, spurred by the people within the projects.

And If I died tomorrow without doing anything else in my life - I would be dead? Oh.. Cocked that one up didn't I? Oh well..

Thanks to all that have helped and sorry for this rather dull tirade.. I will shut up now LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 30, 2009, 09:18:58 PM
Shut Up now! My turn!  :D

Yes, we all went to the mines and only HK gets the fiver!!

As for the satisfaction, yes it's there but on different level. We had a great time developing it, the 'Horace' moment and LaVey moment (in WHawk) for examples are among the stuff that's worth doing all this for. Plus, I've met cool people, learn about even more restrictions on bloody DS (like there was not enough of them already ::) ) and I get to play the great game.
What I meant by all those hours that all of us have put into is the fact that to me it's starting to be a job you do for the nameless service of some kind which is automaton at best! I'm not against a shitload of job, after all what good is from the things that come easy? It's just that this whole work, effort and time should be equally returned to us, if not with general support then with a 'hard earned' buck.

Also, yes, I disliked MM originally cause back in the day it was something those weird spectrum folk use to hammer on their rubber keyboards while the rest of us did...IK? However, working on this has made me like it after time, especially after watching that Matt video which was quite....something.

My wife also threatens me every time I fire up Graphics Gale, so we're equal on that as well. ;)

All in all, it's just a matter of time to move from one thing to another, in this case I agree with iphone being that step forward, after all some beer money can't hurt. If sverx and SF would join as well, it would be quite spiffy and splendid as well.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 30, 2009, 09:33:04 PM
Spiffy... LOL

So, Sadly, I am the cog in the works.. HK has a wonderful grounding in C coding that will be a major benefit for future dev on the iPhone. I may not have mentioned, but I love ASM with a passion that leaves my Wife in the dust. I have never liked C! But... I am MORE than ready to bite the bullet and hopefully put the wonderful things I have learned from ASM  :-* to good use in the constuction of fast code on the iphone. This is going to take time. Sadly I am OLD and stuck in my roots, the brain cells find it tricky to absorb new regimes and my testicles are heading southwards. But.. I WANT to get into this C business.. So.. At least everyone except HK will get a bit of a rest for a while as I become educated LOL

Oh well, I went on a bit again didnt I...

Oh, I started MMLL on Aug 13th, so I was a bit out there (http://code.google.com/p/manicminerll/source/list?start=17)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 30, 2009, 09:38:53 PM
So, Sadly, I am the cog in the works..

Hey, no problems! You can always serve the coffee?   :P

What's driving yer nuts down south? Can't be your young age of 68?  :-X
Also, don't tell me that August 13th was Friday actually, it would make all the sense in the world.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 30, 2009, 09:41:18 PM
ALSO! Don't forget this double post has an old Tibetan saying-

"There's nothing this master coder can't do...for everything else there's HK"



yep.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 30, 2009, 09:48:56 PM
Good ol' HK!! :)

I was actually reading through a load of stuff on Gamex forum yesterday relating to a frontend theme I was working on at the time (just before Warhawk) and giggling to my self about stuff then. It was quite fun that even then I was ribbing HK (he was doing a theme also). Well, this is where we met.

It was slightly interesting though.

http://www.gameex.info/forums/index.php?showtopic=6050&st=0

and, I still have not finished it.. Though it was looking nice on the last page or two.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 30, 2009, 10:00:28 PM
Interesting, but not as much as this old Chinese proverb~

"When I die, I want to die in my sleep like my Grandad, not screaming in terror like the passengers of his car!"

 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 30, 2009, 10:03:13 PM
You liked that then LOL....

It was not mine, I think it was actually Des O'Connor who originally said it? Though I could be wrong. (wouldn't be the first time)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 30, 2009, 10:11:48 PM
Whatever it was, it's worth at least 4 (THREE) LoLs.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 31, 2009, 02:12:00 AM
It's going to be difficult for Flash and I understand this and I can already tell he is just about throwing up after going through my TDG code. But that is why the first game we do on iPhone is going to be done together. I'm so serious about iPhone now and have been looking an iMac's and MacBooks and crying at how expensive Apple gear is  :'(

Anyway the good thing is I can dual boot the Mac into Win7 and OSX so I will have the best of both worlds.

Would love to see the whole crew back with us in iPhone, and it would be cool if sverx could port his xm player to iPhone and perhaps even get a bit more involved in coding. It's going to be a hard slog for all of us, I have never touched a Mac, and I have never touched an iPhone so were all starting from scratch here. And this is actually what I want to do for a crust, because I have so many freeware projects I do for fun now, I would still rather make games and apps for iPhone than to do 9 to 5. Right now it's a hard struggle doing freelance coding work, I would much rather write a game then have some time off to drink and party and have flexible hours and work from home and have a great bunch of guys to work with.

Anyway it's great to hear the RetroBytes team sound interested in working on future projects and perhaps just want to see how things go and play it by ear. My main concern now is getting Flash motivated and looking at "C" code. I have alot of faith in him and am sure it will grow on him. Afterall to me it's like the difference between meccano and leggo; they are just different ways to make things but you can still make cool stuff from either of them. Now.. to just get Flash off the meccano and playing with leggo  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 31, 2009, 02:27:40 AM
Yeah, you need at least leopard 10.5, maybe a macbook (goes up to 3gigs ram, single or dual cpu), the latest check I did on ebay was about $600 to $800 depends on HD and RAM (usually 1.83 single/1 or 2 gigs RAM). Do a check, maybe somewhere around your place you can find a cheaper, used/refurbished and such. We have like anual hardware sale in a neighborhood where you can score a system like that for dirt cheap dammit, pity it's already done (august) as I wanted to get me hands around one of them macs as well but got busy to visit the show. Maybe there's something along the line of that where you live?

Same goes for iphone, you don't really need it, especially if you have a cellphone already, just get a refurbished/used ipodtouch from ebay or such places. It's the same thing, sans the phone, of course. I've seen the latest model (8gigs) which is $199 in store being sold used for 140 or even less depending on how fast you are to score a bid. Definitely you can save on this though.

As for motivating Flash, a kick in the butt is a cheap way to get things done (I would do it for free but air fare is sorta expensive).
 8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 31, 2009, 02:44:23 AM
I've been looking at the more expensive iMac's and MacBook Pro's because I want a powerful machine to run Win7 through VM. With the iMac I'm looking at a 3.33 Ghz Core Duo, 8 gig RAM, 1 TB drive and 20" screen. It's still cheaper than the MacBook I'm looking at which is a 2.7 Ghz Core Duo, 4 gig RAM 15" display. I would rather the MacBook though but it depends on the finances I can scrape together after selling my current notebook etc.

As for getting an iTouch instead of iPhone the problem is the iTouch also lacks a camera doesn't it? One of the first apps I wanted to write was going to use the video camera. Plus I've been told by a few people (including Flash) to save up and get the iPhone. Again that will be dependant on the finances. Altogether though I'm looking at spending around $4000 AUD.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 31, 2009, 03:30:23 AM
Yeah, touch doesn't have a camera. Not a biggie in general as I think I've used the camera on iphone like 11 times but if you need it then I guess it's the iphone you're looking at.

Maybe we can all chip in at least for iphone, dunno, if four of us add at least $50 then you're quite close to say used iphone 8gigs, guys?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 31, 2009, 09:31:09 AM
I would be happy to fire a few 'bucks' in HK's direction to help toward an iPhone (best option imho)

As for a dev system,

I am using the latest MacBookPro 13" system. The screens vertical res is 800px and 80% of MMLL was written on it using a VM and Win7 (though I have WinXP at the moment as the win7 was beta). This is a great machine and using parallels desktop 4 as a vm server works a treat. The machine is a dual boot so I can natively run OSX or Windows from separate partitions. You can also run the bootcamp partition as a vm within OSX using parallels.

As to the power. It originally came with 2 gig (upgraded to 4) and a 160g drive (upgraded to 500g) and runs at a fair ol' lick. So, personally HK, I would go that little bit further and go for a MacBookPro. the 15" is a great compromise between size and speed.

And, I will play with Lego... I want to build something better than as slightly suspect analogy LOL...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 31, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
This was just posted on World of Stuart from Chupacabra

Quote
Well - beat the game last night. Cleared Willywood and all the Secret levels (afaik). Twenty of 'em. Now to do the speedruns.

As I said, by far the best homebrew I've played. I'd have bought this at retail (even faster if it had the original levels included). Great, great work and thanks to all involved. There's not a single aspect of the game that's lacking.

Edit: btw - Willywood! *Juvenile sniggers*

That is nice to read and fills me with a warm glow :)

What I do find a little annoying with forums in general is that people will insist on posting in other forums problems with our games when we offer links to our forum where the 'people in the know' reside.
Oh well, perhaps I am just getting old and fucking grumpy?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 31, 2009, 03:20:51 PM
and from RobF on RetroRemakes,

Quote
Most of the alternate levels I've played have involved either lots of fiddly jumping, awkward waiting around for nasties to move out the way and so on - which isn't bad, it's just a long way from the perfection that is Matt Smith's levels and y'know, you shouldn't really be hanging around for longer than a blip to clear a level. It's a slightly broken flow.

But fuck, gripes about other peoples level design aside, this is clearly one of the best bloody DS games out there including all the commercial stuff. It's fucking fabtastic.

That has filled my bucket full of joy now!!

See Lobo, they are not all cunts!! LOL
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 31, 2009, 05:21:35 PM

See Lobo, they are not all c**ts!! LOL


Still cunts! :)

Can't believe that some people have already finished it or even unlocked the WW levels. My skills are like-Airlock level!
And yeah, we should really add some bucks to his treasure chest, would make it a bit easier to get the bloody thing sorted, so just email us thy paypal account or such.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 31, 2009, 05:59:23 PM
Some people are pretty good!!

I did manage to make a vid and it is linked from the main page or general news.

Just realised that MMLL took 10 weeks to create - seems so so much longer? Aug 13th - Oct 27th
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 31, 2009, 06:54:09 PM
Just realised that MMLL took 10 weeks to create - seems so so much longer? Aug 13th - Oct 27th

To me it feels as if it was started back in 1647.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 31, 2009, 07:20:06 PM
To me it feels as if it was started back in 1647.

Exactly, weird lol
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 31, 2009, 07:28:41 PM
I only remember cause it was a terrible plague that year and we got to burn a bunch of heretics that's all.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on October 31, 2009, 10:20:09 PM
I really appreciate that offer there guys but I'm going to see how much I can get together first. I have a couple of software SDK's that I'm in the process of trying to sell and recently finished a web design job along with selling my notebook. Anyway we will see.

Got a bit of work done on TDG yesterday and have most of the character movement sorted I think as well as figured out a relatively robust event system. So not too far away from finishing it now methinks.. I really hope to by the end of this month anyway.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on October 31, 2009, 11:12:44 PM
Well, let us know how it goes with finances but if you can't have the phone by the end of November, I chipy anyway.

Cool if TDG comes by the end of Nov, that's huuuuge. Bloody two kickbutt games in such a short period, as Lemmy would say 'Orgasmatron!!!'. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on October 31, 2009, 11:28:16 PM
Well, let us know how it goes with finances but if you can't have the phone by the end of November, I chipy anyway.

and so will I!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 01, 2009, 12:14:16 AM
Would been fun for a Manic Miner or such game for IPhone. Due Multi Touch that should not been a problem to due some controls for that game.

Another game that could been fun to do to DS /or PC( is "Bounty Bob Strikes Back", which have a very awesome hiscore table (its still unique even this day) and a nice gameplay and a quite hard but fun game. I have not seen a remake of that game. Howver there is Miner 2049 remake recently which is pretty nice.

That game could nicely designed for DS as well IPhone (only need onscreen 3 buttons, left right and jump).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 01, 2009, 12:53:32 AM
I was playing the Manic Miner C64 on iphone and oddly it behaved better than I expected. I thought that rigid control systems were not the best for touch option but it did work better than some other pixel precision games (Mikie for example is almost impossible to play cause of that).

However, for the iphone game I would prefer something different than -

A) remake

B) Miner type of games

C) Platformer in general (unless it's something ours/original/fits the design)

Rather, I would concentrate on either original concept or in case we go with some kinda platformer, to be something preferably not owned by anyone out there. That would disqualify MM or BountyBob and millions of others.
Plus, dunno if anyone here would be thrilled to do any of the aforementioned games on DS any time soon, especially as MMLL should be about enough for platformer fans for say, a decade at least.  :P
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 02, 2009, 08:48:04 AM
Hello again... I've been off-line the whole weekend so I've had to read a lot, and I'll surely forget something in my reply... forgive me. Here we go.

First: maybe having a 'Donate' button closer to the download links on this page (http://headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=mmll&page=download) will double our earnings easily ;) Btw you're not going to make a living from this so actually it's just an idea that could help you fill the gap of the cost between an iPod and an iPhone, uh? :P

Then: about libXM7... well, it's C, so it's virtually portable to any platform, including the iPhone of course. NDS has hardware channels with hardware mixing among them, though, and I don't know what about iPhone. Maybe software mixing routines will be required, and here's where ASM coding it's deeply needed, you know :) [Is there an iPhone emulator around? Where can I read specs about the sound capabilities of that piece?]

Last: well, actually I can't say I'm part of your team... I didn't even write a single line of code of MMLL, even if you're using my library and I've been working on that libXM7/zlib integration (let's call it so...lol). What I mean at the end of this is: I'd love to be part of it but I've still got to prove I can be useful.

Very last: I started working on a remake some days ago, more details will follow soon, hopefully.

Forgot something? I bet ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 02, 2009, 09:14:23 PM
Rev.Stu has pointed me in the direction of a bit of MMLL fun here that I think you all may enjoy (I did!)

http://forum.stillwater-rock.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=6658&page=1 (http://forum.stillwater-rock.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=6658&page=1)

Sweet!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 02, 2009, 09:26:28 PM
Is there an iPhone emulator around? Where can I read specs about the sound capabilities of that piece?

There's one in SDK, from what I've heard it emulates accelerometer and sound OK? Flash should know. All the technical components can be probably seen in docs that come with SDK or on Apple developer pages FAQs.


Last: well, actually I can't say I'm part of your team...

All you have to do is usual sacrifice the virgin, drink the blood of the damned and you're in. We're not asking too much?


Flash, what is that link about, it gives me login page on Way of the Rodent, care to give some details, snapshot?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on November 02, 2009, 10:29:03 PM
Rev.Stu has pointed me in the direction of a bit of MMLL fun here that I think you all may enjoy (I did!)

http://forum.stillwater-rock.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=6658&page=1 (http://forum.stillwater-rock.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=6658&page=1)

Sweet!!

Damn it have to be a member to view that. What's it about?

I have been speaking with a business partner of mine recently who is interested in remaking some MAME games. Although he thinks there may be some issues contacting the original IP holders. But it's another avenue to think about.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 02, 2009, 11:16:42 PM
Flash, what is that link about, it gives me login page on Way of the Rodent, care to give some details, snapshot?

You have to register sadly, and there is 7 pages about MMLL so a bit too much to snapshot.

It is mostly a challenge to see who can get the highest score this week..

FUCK they should have done the same with Warhawk!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 02, 2009, 11:18:09 PM
I don't think it's really possible to get any permission without actually paying the royalties to the original owners or whoever holds the ip. Regardless of whether it's MAME or any machine really, 5, 10, 20 years old - no matter.
Just because noone remembers these titles nor plays them or sells them anymore doesn't mean they're up for grabs.

For all that, inspired with certain title is Ok but just picking it up and remaking while keeping the title/gameplay/else of the original, especially for sale, methinks is a bad idea.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 02, 2009, 11:27:50 PM
I don't think it's really possible to get any permission without actually paying the royalties to the original owners or whoever holds the ip. Regardless of whether it's MAME or any machine really, 5, 10, 20 years old - no matter.
Just because noone remembers these titles nor plays them or sells them anymore doesn't mean they're up for grabs.

For all that, inspired with certain title is Ok but just picking it up and remaking while keeping the title/gameplay/else of the original, especially for sale, methinks is a bad idea.
There are a few mame games that are pd, but these perhaps are not worth converting... Saying that I would be interested in hearing more.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 02, 2009, 11:42:25 PM
Probably those which are PD are not the ones that anyone wants to play, most likely. You got better chances in doing on your own at the end of the day than porting mediocre game or hoping to get the green light from ip holders.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 02, 2009, 11:56:07 PM
Ok, ideas,

Monkey King,

Mr. Ee!

Pac Muncher

Galaxibirds

Solar Squirrel

Space Invasion,

Um!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 12:06:40 AM
Shorter~

"Space Monkey Kings Vs. Mr. GalaxyMuncherInvader "

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on November 03, 2009, 12:15:26 AM
Of course we can't just remake a MAME game without a contract from the IP holder. But I think it's an interesting avenue since a known game will be more popular, and we wouldn't have to worry about the licensing as I assume he would handle all that (I will give more info about who it is if anything happens). Anyway there is nothing set in concrete he just mentioned in an e-mail that he's interested after I told him we were moving to the iPhone platform. But to be sure we wouldn't remake any game commercially without having a license to do so.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 12:22:00 AM
It is interesting, of course, especially if some well known ip is in question, no objection. Usually though, these things are handled already internally. For example, I saw (besides frogger) stuff like Pole Position, Space Invaders (MAME, not the coolio new one) and such resurfacing in some kinda low budget package but yet handled internally by the ip owners rather than supported by publishers who also act like developers as well (example-Gameloft).
So, yeah, in case he can secure the rights though, it can definitely work.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 03, 2009, 08:08:44 AM
All you have to do is usual sacrifice the virgin, drink the blood of the damned and you're in.

Oh, I thought I'd have to go through some initiation but I see there are no such things...

Btw -again- you've got a really weird way of using forums. Everything in the same topic until it lasts ;) Funny, though, but kind of weird for newcomers ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 10:31:35 AM
Yeah, we do tend to digress! I blame the other!! Tossers!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on November 03, 2009, 10:33:28 AM
Yeah, we do tend to digress! I blame the other!! Tossers!

Well, we all blame you. :p
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 12:53:11 PM
I should post that in bug report, when they talked about mp3 releases, but since that is not a bug, I post here instead......

Here is a version 0.9 of the soundtrack (I guess two tunes is still 8 bit, rest is 16 bit) and have renamed all files and have reorder them:
www.spacefractal.com/music/Space_Fractal_-_Manic_Miner_DS,_SoundTrack_(2009).zip (3.4MB)

I guess the read-me.txt should been updated and more info as well have a full soundtrack album including coverart. Howover since musicans sometimes do signature directly on the coverart, I do NOT want to been confusion on the Lobo09 signature one used in the DS coverart (on DS coverart = no problems). Instead it should done same way as the titlescreen on the bottom right in same style and font.....

PS. I did not do mp3's this time, because most songs loops and I need to prefere fading on these songs before release these as mp3. You can by now use Winamp to convert them to wav in a row and then use CDEX to mass convert them to Mp3, and to the last using a Tag software based on filename to tag them.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 01:06:18 PM
I can create album art for the mp3's for you if you wish based on the game cover?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 01:10:25 PM
that is up to Lobo. Its should use cd style format :-D and it could been based on the game cover.

I later do mp3 as I wrote in email, I have been a bit sig and now need some rest (just one day), but XM's release is better than nothing :-D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 03:01:18 PM
the full album in mp3 (192kb, including that one diddent got into the game) seen to use 71mb and is 52:26 secs in length (I was not aware I have near created a hour of music, even some songs required fadeout and minor end changes). I just have converted to mp3, but still need tag them and a coverart. I do still create a mirror so long I dont have traffic problem (which I guess should not been happens?)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 03:06:55 PM
nearly an hour of GREAT music :)

If you want me to host the archive as well, just let me know?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 03:23:40 PM
somewhere went wrong. I upload soon.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 03, 2009, 03:27:35 PM
nearly an hour of GREAT music :)

I agree. I'm listening to the XMs in the while :) But we indeed desire a MMLL & MMWW OST ;D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 03:37:38 PM
uploading and sending link to Flash. when coverarts is added as well readme, Flash and I would do a host of the music in 32khz 192kbit mp3 files (samples is 22khz, so I see no reason to do 44.1) and is about a 43mb download. I gonna think both XM and Mp3 should been inlcluded in same archive?

Thanks to all why like my music. Its was fun to due and also others to for the awesome work for the game.

PS. For the coverart, all that is needed is move the Lobo09 signature to the topleft corner, due my name is now at the bottom. No other changes is needed, so I hope that OK?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 07:26:14 PM
I can do a proper cover, front/back if you'll wait a day or two. Back can have the songs listed with running time, just like regular CD and front will of course remove the nintendo logo and stuff and eventually I can draw something else completely new on the cover.
As for signature, you don't move these things, it comes in a spur of the moment and where it hits-there it stays. :)
I would simply put a letters with 'MMLL soundtrack - Music by Spacefractal' on the cover, just like RetrobytesPortal is written on the game cover so people will know.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 08:00:35 PM
I moved it and turned it upside down and added effects to make it drip with sheeps blood, is that not good enough?

A cover would be great if you have the time?

I will send you what I did, but... I know you would do so so so so much more betterer than wat I dided.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 08:04:07 PM
That coverart Flash did and where my name was, I dident like the placement of that signature, due the changes and for a soundtracks. Here you can see where it was moved too to avoid confliction with my name. Normally I think coverarts either should have a disrect siganture, like the awesome siganture on the game title screen (in the DS game) or do something like "art by" your signature on the backcover or even on frontcover if its discret. This is due musicans might signature them self on the front cover. I have example some Bjorn Lynne albums with his siganture.

My friend accepted to do the same, when I asked to credits him self on backcover on my Sight of the Light (http://www.spacefractal.com/index.php?id=Music&item=sight_of_the_light) album. On a another coverart, it was nice room for his full signature without breaking anyting. So its depend the art style.

Here is a example it could look, but it can been changed in the final (hence I reduced the size).

PS. I have NO problems if its stay here as shown in the file. Its a nice placements without breaking anything.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 08:33:44 PM
This is due musicans might signature them self on the front cover.

Musicians don't credit themselves for artists cover, artists who did the cover do. ;)
Musicians get the huge letters saying explicitly that they did the music.
The signature for the cover goes where cover artist finds it suitable, not where musician finds it tolerable. Plus my signatures are always discreet.
So, I'll see maybe tonight or tomorrow, it's a small drawing I have in mind, shouldn't take long.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 08:44:37 PM
And,

Nope, it's gone...

Main thing is, you know best mate...

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 09:00:09 PM
On frontcovers I normally seen all "credits" to the musican, and all other people used is credited somewhere in the cover (backcover example). I do want you too credits Mark Cooksey as well, due I used the hiscore tune from him as well I did remixes of various midi tunes. I do dont think all song tiles should been wrote, since there is whole 37 songs (one unused in the game), unless if you do a innerside cover as well (people can see titles on filename as well tags anyway).

Howover as long you do a "art by" text and a signature under that, then it would been fine with me (regaardless its on front or back, just a "art by"). That one on Nintendo DS cover the signature is somewhere dominate, due color used, rest is really discret and nice (even it not 100% suitable to use in a end screen, since we allready got credits, but still nice). Best one is that from game title screen. That one is really nicely and like that one.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 09:11:43 PM
I cant really agree with that one. None of the coverarts I have have art signatures, but they are really normally in back coverart or inderside intead. I just want some controls with these things, when it came to music.

Art signatures are for the art displayed, I cannot sign SF at the bottom of the picture clearly not drawn by SF, can I?
So that's where the signature of the actual artist comes to be so I can't agree with your proposition. It's a matter of semantics I believe and fairly simple one to resolve due to the fact that it easily distinguish who did the cover and who did the music (again, huge font with 'Music by SF' oughta work). All the control over the music itself goes to you, of course. I don't prefer doing 'art  by' stuff cause that's too much and I don't think that DS cover signature is dominant, it's properly visible. The one in the game does not suit the cover, it's two different designs completely.

As for Mark Cooksey, you have to tell me exactly how to credit him, only for hiscore tune or what else?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 09:24:06 PM
This has all got too complicated for my fragile little mind.. I will cry myself to sleep as I shiver!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 09:24:35 PM
there is lots of room on backcover. A songlist should NOT been used, since 37 songs is to big to been listable anyway (unless you doo a 4 page booklet)... So you can do a lots of thing here. Includning credits of course where I like to credits ALL here of course, screenshtos from the game (with songs used on that screenshot can been listed), how to get it etc (simply of fact no songlist is used).

BUT, If you only do a frontcover, there is a diffecent story...... Of course you need your signature somewhere. Here I personly you should do the art signature in the bottom right and my name in the top (or the other way). I just wont have my name and art signature set same place. Here there is no room for other credits other than you and me (other than a link where the game is)?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 09:31:55 PM
This has all got too complicated for my fragile little mind.. I will cry myself to sleep as I shiver!

 :D I knew it would happen even though it's quite a simple affair. In a nutshell, signature of the artist being different from huge bold letters with the name of musician have about 0.0000000000000000000000000001% of the chance to clash each other, it's visually obvious to anyone who have capacity to read and understand the meaning of words to distinguish who did what here. Even if both signatures were standing right next to each other (and they wont cause I also want them separate).

37 songs are not too big, Ramones used to fit that much on their albums all the time ;). All in all I would list them at the back, no screenshots from the game, just list of songs, links and credits to Mark.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 09:32:19 PM
I think just a nice front cover is all that is really needed? Do we need back covers and stuff?

I liked the way you did it with Warhawk. The songs with the embedded cover in the mp3's
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 09:33:30 PM
The Ramones - WONDERFUL!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 09:33:45 PM
Back cover only to list the songs, you know, credits and links. I can't fit that on the front.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 09:34:25 PM
The Ramones - WONDERFUL!

Hell Yeah!  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 09:39:54 PM
I thought you were too refined to like 'punk rock' (call it what you like 'American Punk?')

I was/am still a fan of the Clash. Damned, etc.. Those were GREAT days.

The Ramones certainly packed a lot of tracks on their albums, thats for sure!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 09:48:05 PM
some people might burn the cd, hence they want it printed and used. Hence backcover is required. but if music is only digital, then backcover is not required (which I guess most do).

credits to mark is only required if there is room (i also used some songs from others like midi songs). All logoes (in small size mightbeen?) could been used in backcover as well.

Here is a art signature I really Love and even asked him to do (that album got some love songs), so used correctly then absolute no problems :). I also DONT think there problem on Nintendo DS covers, even its a bit dominiate, this is due there is no other names or such placed directly to it and there was room there.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 09:51:47 PM
Ramones would usually pack around 14-15 songs in like 20 minutes, exception is a 'It's Alive' which has 28. I do have one bootleg CD, about 40 songs in less than 30 minutes!

Yeah, I still got that stuff around, The Clash, UK Subs, G.B.H and a bunch of US ones, Bad Brains, Operation Ivy, early Misfits, NoMeansNo (Canada, eh?) and lotsa others as well. I listen to everything I like regardless of genre/whatnot.
Easily I can go from Beethoven and 'Sonata No. 14' to Suicidal Tendencies 'I saw your mommy and your mommy's dead' to Morricone's 'For a fistful of dollars OST' and still feel fine. ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 09:53:41 PM
its not first time I did short songs (due many levels and many only used it once). Space Taxi was a another game, which was created by me (as musican and programmer) and a friend. That game would been awesome to see to a DS and still have all graphics.

I also have a album by Ryen The Blithe, The Blend and the Bizarre (Reyn Ouwehand) (2007), where many songs is short too, but some is lengty too.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 03, 2009, 10:00:41 PM
MisFits - :)

Did you ever listen to 'the Anti-Nowhere League' - A bit harsh, the 'We are the League' is a fantastic track.

Also, early Stranglers, Dead Kennedy's, P.I.L. oh, the list is endless...

I am the same.. (SADLY) I can flit from Barbra Streisand to The Cure at a stride. I have very wide tastes..
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 10:11:49 PM
and please note, I have reorder the songs, if doing songlist (but still tell which song number it was in the game jukebox section). You can see that in the XM song release eailer in the page the new order (so they place in the correct order I want, but is not needed to reorder them again in the game jukebox section at all).

Also I/Flash just moved the bad placed signature, which was due the added bottom text ("The Album", "Space Fractal" in the example), but that not mean it should been removed (if I due that, I never release that anyway), just moved to better place and stay here and still very visable without any clash (Flash placement is much more visable than mine placement, but still like it).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 10:35:07 PM
MisFits - :)

Did you ever listen to 'the Anti-Nowhere League' - A bit harsh, the 'We are the League' is a fantastic track.

Also, early Stranglers, Dead Kennedy's, P.I.L. oh, the list is endless...

I am the same.. (SADLY) I can flit from Barbra Streisand to The Cure at a stride. I have very wide tastes..

Yep, A.N.L, I also think I still have Stranglers record but I didn't really like them that much. Kennedy's of course, Holiday in Cambodia and Let's Lynch the Landlord. Still got Public Image, the first album and the one with Flowers of Romance or something. Remember maybe 'Stiff Little Fingers'? They were good, didn't last too long though.
Hah, I loved Exploited, think I still have it somewhere, that dude had a bad ass Mohawk!!

SF, I'll do the new cover completely for soundtrack so there's no need you guys move anything around anymore. ;)
Is the actual song order the one from XMs in that zip?

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 10:44:30 PM
I think I shoot my mount now until I see the new cover :-D. I just released the example how good placement it could :-D and no others. I like use a least 800x800 pixels coverarts, so it show nicely in my jukebox software.

The correct order in the v0.9 soundtrack on that zip is the new order I gave, also #TRACKNUMBER# - #TITLE#.xm. I removed one word in title name as well, due ? was not possible to use due filename. Elsewise I use same titles as Flash gave them and hope I did not have any spellings on them and there is 37 songs.

I just think you should tell the user [] is the songnumber used in the GAME jukebox section. I did that way because I want the songs played in the around game's level order.

Godnight and good working  :)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: headkaze on November 03, 2009, 10:58:36 PM
It's really up to Lobo where he puts his signature on a piece of his artwork. As long as it doesn't get in the way of other graphics (like the titlescreen in Warhawk when we added a scrolly we needed to move it higher for example).

Speaking of credits though I did notice on a few screens the order of them sometimes changed. I'm not sure if this was due to a design decision or based on an estimate of hours put into the game or involvement or whatever. While I didn't put as many hours into the game there is a substancial amount of code used from Warhawk so while I don't think a co-writer credit was due in most cases I believe the programmer credits should come first, then graphics and then music (as it has been in all the games I have ever seen). This was probably not done intentionally but I think it's the general consensus. Anyway if we have to be more careful about credits, we should probably decide on them before publishing to save anyone getting potentially upset. We did forget to mention sverx on the intitial release which was a pretty major screw up caused by the slight rush of release for Stu's birthday. Since noone is getting paid, in many ways the only kudos is a credit so I do think it's an important point. Anyway we do try to credit everyone who has helped along the way and in many cases better than many homebrew I've seen around.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 03, 2009, 11:11:10 PM
Sometimes when something is added, some others thing might got screwed and need a move.... Now its a new cover, its should been no problem anymore.....

the order of the credits, even I might have used much time doing time, no problem with me either.... I and sverx even got a shared fun poster on the bus.

on hiscore spacefractal was to long, here I normally use spacef instead for shorting it. Only here I was I was higher up, but that it :).

What did go wrong around sverx's credits? I see he got credited as well since we used the XM code from him. I guess that got fixed?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 03, 2009, 11:49:55 PM
For the credits in MMLL, I see them exactly in that order HK proposed-
Coding, gfx, music and on another page it says - concept/research, libxm (sverx) and beta testing.
Hmm..now that I'm looking at it, probably libxm7 should be moved to front page together with 'coding' cause that's where it should belong. The only problem is if there's enough space in there?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 12:33:03 AM
Well, anyway, I've sent the covers to Flash with possible credits adjustments if necessary where sverx can fit at the front next to coding.

Also, unrelated but I have to show you this folks, it's about the game smealum and I were working on (DawnSeekers) which got 2 second places lately (Neo compo and this Scenery Beta thing). Anyway, just received the 'tweet' about the statue and plaque of some sort that smealum got and had to laugh at the prospect that he might be what looks like a Lenin (devilish) on the left which makes me the Pope (see the statue on the right).  :D
Quite fun.

 Picture tells a thousand million words (http://smealum.net/03112009459.jpg)

Actually, he didn't get the statues, just the plaque thingie and that middle stuff but the way this is arranged..I need to frame it or something, perfect design!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 05:53:36 AM
lol, congra. which game is its? The page is not english?

Personly sverx is a codning support just like headkaze (read HeadKaze, Sverx on same line). The only problem is no room for LibXM text and hence tht why I like the second credits screen (which he might not have noticed that), since its a third party (great) library.

Now its version 1.03 so there why I guess its got fixed anyway and there is no problems at all?

I have not checked out newest version....
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 04, 2009, 07:10:22 AM
[...] Flash and I would do a host of the music in 32khz 192kbit mp3 files (samples is 22khz, so I see no reason to do 44.1)

Samples are 22K samples per second but playing a note at a higher pitch will reproduce these samples at a higher rate so, actually, I would do 44KHz 192Kbps anyway, of course setting some high quality sample interpolation. The resulting quality is very high, I swear.

Oh, about that crediting topic... well, I believe I shouldn't be credited like an additional coder for MMLL, it wouldn't be fair since I just did a little of beta testing and a little of support on libXM7 (which wasn't directly written for MMLL, you know). So actually just a mention to libXM7, like other libraries you used, would already be fine :) [...but I do love that you wrote my name in the game, this way I can proudly show the game to my friends and say "look what WE've done!"  ;) ;)]

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 07:15:05 AM
You were/are still part of the team and as such I thought it best to have you in the title credits screen.

OK, Lobo - SF, these are the correct song names in the order they appear in the jukebox. There are several tracks with incorrect names (...Jungle Beats, for example)

   .asciz   "MINER WILLY'S MINING SONG!"   @ 26+1
   .asciz   "  ON A DARK MINING NIGHT  "
   .asciz   "MINER WILLY, SPACE EXPORER"
   .asciz   " THE PHARAOH'S LITTLE JIG "
   .asciz   "    WILLY'S LITTLE RAG    "
   .asciz   "    SMITHS EAR BLEEDER    "
   .asciz   "     AS TIME GOES BY.     "
   .asciz   "      DOWN THE ALLEY      "
   .asciz   " THE MIGHTY JUNGLE BEASTS "
   .asciz   "PLAYING LIVE AT THE CAVERN"
   .asciz   "   THE ODDNESS OF BEING   "
   .asciz   "   REGGIE LIKE'S REGGAE   "
   .asciz   "    TIME TO TERMINATE!    "
   .asciz   " THE 80'S WILL NEVER DIE! "
   .asciz   "   SIT DOWN RAY PARKER!   "
   .asciz   "THERE'S A CHUNK IN MY EYE!"
   .asciz   " SCREAM AND SCREAM AGAIN! "
   .asciz   "HOBNAIL BOOTS, AND TOP HAT"
   .asciz   " THE MICROWAVE GOES 'POP' "
   .asciz   "   TOP OF THE WORLD MA!   "
   .asciz   "AND SOMEONE MENTIONED YES!"
   .asciz   "  SEEN MY SHUTTLE, COCK?  "
   .asciz   "    A LIFE UNDERGROUND    "
   .asciz   " LOOKS LIKE A COLD FRONT! "
   .asciz   " IT'S TIME TO RETURN HOME "
   .asciz   " COMMODORES LITTLE WILLY! "
   .asciz   "  THE TITLED SIR. WILLY!  "
   .asciz   "     A SOMBER MOMENT.     "
   .asciz   "   OH JOY! BIG NUMBERS!   "
   .asciz   "   MARCH OF THE MINERS.   "
   .asciz   "  THE DEMONIC WHALE SONG  "
   .asciz   " ALL THIS DOOM AND GLOOM! "
   .asciz   " SUPERHEROES COME TO REST "
   .asciz   "       BAH! HUMBUG!       "
   .asciz   "   BEING SO TRIUMPHANT!   "
   .asciz   "      THE LAST WALTZ      "

Hope that helps?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 04, 2009, 07:48:10 AM
Google-ing a bit this morning...

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/10/homebrew_manic_miner_in_the_lo.php
http://gbatemp.net/index.php?showtopic=188085
http://mattyongames.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/manic-miner-lost-levels/
http://www.retroactionmagazine.com/retronews/manic-miner-in-the-lost-levels-released-on-ds
http://homebrewds.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/manic-miner-the-lost-levels-ds-v1-0/
and my favourite http://nagaokastation.com/?p=5444   ;) ;)



Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 10:47:32 AM
As a soundtrack I more prefer sort them after the game level order and title should been the first song. Hence its why I added the [] to the title name (which is the song number in the game jukebox). But if Flash really want to play the order he choiced, I would accept that, but let me now, so I can rename the files correctly. I do also not want big letters only on the coverart, which would cause hard to read, even it works pretty awesome in the game, due its only one line.

I also renamed SEEN MY SHUTTLE, COCK? to SEEN MY SHUTTLE!, due ? is not allowered in a filename and some jukebox software prefere that, but I can do the full title name in the tag.

The Jungle Beat. Nice spotted, it was a spelling from me. More spelling, so I can retag them correctly in mp3 (when I recode them again)? I think I need to rename all files to make sure.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 11:02:33 AM
I am not worried about the order of the songs, just to get the names correct on the artwork and in the mp3's

'Where's my Shuttle, Cock' is fine in the mp3 file name, but the ? can be in the id tag and on the artwork. (it needs Cock on the end as it is part of the humor)

Please check your names with the ones in the list for other errors.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 11:07:52 AM
Then you should do the new order I gave for the coverart, but you do NOT need to reorder them again for the game due this. No need.

XM'S version reuploaded with 3 spellings corrected. Did not found more?

http://www.spacefractal.com/music/Space_Fractal_-_Manic_Miner_DS,_SoundTrack_(2009).zip

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 05:52:58 PM
I've sent the cover to Flash already. I was following the xm files names which I thought should be in mp3.
I don't know if that stays or what?

here's how it looks like for me-

01 - The Titled Sir. Willy! [27]
02 - On A Dark Mining Night [02]
03 - Miner Willy, Space Explorer [03]
04 - The Pharaoh's Little Jig [04]
05 - The Mighty Jungle Beats [09]
06 - Willy's Little Rag [05]
07 - Reggie Like's Reggae [12]
08 - Smiths Ear Bleeder [06]
09 - Down the Alley [08]
10 - Playing Live at the Cavern [10]
11 - A Life Underground [23]
12 - The Demonic Whale Song [31]
13 - Seen my Shuttle! [22]
14 - The Oddness of Being [11]
15 - And Someone Mentioned Yes! [21]
16 - Looks Like a Cold Front [24]
17 - All This Doom and Gloom [32]
18 - March of the Miners [30]
19 - Being so Triumphant! [35]
20 - As Time Goes By [07]
21 - The Microwave goes 'pop' [19]
22 - There's a Chunk in my Eye [16]
23 - The 80' Will Never Die [14]
24 - Scream and Scream Again! [17]
25 - Sit Down Ray Parker! [15]
26 - Top of the World Ma! [20]
27 - Time to Terminate! [13]
28 - Hobnail Boots, and Top Hat [18]
29 - It's Time to Return Home [25]
30 - Superheroes Come to Rest [33]
31 - Miner Willy's Mining Song [01]
32 - Comodores Little Willy [26]
33 - Bah! Humbug! [34]
34 - A Somber Moment [28]
35 - Oh Joy! Big Numbers! [29]
36 - The Last Waltz [36]
37 - Old Miner Willy's Mining Song [Not Used]
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 05:59:04 PM
the list I posted earlier are the names as used in the game.

ie. Jungle Beasts (not beats)..

Apart from that, and the ommission of 'Cock' on the shuttle tune (track 13), they are pretty close. But.. The list is the exact names that I did was then done had post on the place where forum thing that was earlier and not was later and that was what it was then wasn't it?

Or something like that?
 :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 06:22:22 PM
there was a spelling on Comodores as well. I should have updated it with corrected spellings. I want to see the coverarts, you sent to flash? you dont have my emails? I mean i have sent you a level design for some time ago, so you should have it. When I got it, I reuploade the mp3s and prefere them again later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 06:29:28 PM
I have seen the coverart, and byeth doth thou eyes weep at thy wonderment. Such perfection and class in such a perfect square that my mind washes with the influx of such visions... oh joy to my eye..

So, oy! You ain't seen 'em yet then! Bugger!!
 :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Shit! Forgot to change Commodore!! Arrrr...wait Flash, new email in...5.4...3...2....7...
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 06:34:13 PM
can you send it? I want to see it, including the signature (I guess set the signature a none problem place at all :)). I might rename the files, but that all I might do.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 06:41:50 PM
Ok, check your email.

Btw, that game is DawnSeekers, it's 3d fps and yeah, the site is (mostly) in French.
You can try the latest build here, 2 levels only.

http://www.infectuous.com/pronto/DawnSeekers.zip

Hope you like the cover and don't change any titles anymore, I had like 6 revisions so far!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 06:42:43 PM
Shit! Forgot to change Commodore!! Arrrr...wait Flash, new email in...5.4...3...2....7...
Ended up and -14,-15,-18,-FFED!

You took your time!!  :D
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 06:44:31 PM
Hope you like the cover and don't change any titles anymore, I had like 6 revisions so far!  :D

As long as the mp3 titles and tags match the track list on the back cover - that is PERFECT!

Sweet!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 06:49:59 PM
I like that coverarts, its very cool, and the signature is a problemo :-D.

I only found one issue:
 If I put the backcover in a tray, you can't see the name of it, if I put the cd in my collection...... Its allways a bit wider to I can fold it, so you can see the name. That area can been little tight, so just a simple blue text on black bg can do that.


I also need to rename the cover files to suit most jukebox software (includning my own).
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 06:53:20 PM
What do you mean, cover in the tray thingie?
I'm not picking up a signal today very well, need coffee.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 06:58:24 PM
What do you mean, cover in the tray thingie?
I'm not picking up a signal today very well, need coffee.

I think SF means that the back cover lacks the two curly flappy flaps that hold the title to flop into a case that has a flappy holder? See... I know!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 06:59:26 PM
correctly. sorry my english :-D

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 07:04:39 PM
Did I win a point for getting it right?  8)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 07:15:02 PM
You win a cookie.  8)

I see now, I thought of 'jacket' design like these but I'll see if I can cram in the sides for this one.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on November 04, 2009, 07:19:36 PM
Did I win a point for getting it right?  8)

Sure you do. Here's one. Case closed. Been programming on Horace today btw.   ???
(http://royshaff.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/pointing-finger.jpg)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 07:30:28 PM
I just mostly prefer oldschool tray. Im uploading now and sendings links, howover I do NOT remove the soundtrack from the link, but instead this is a mirror. I have included both mp3 and xm's. Even the title is missing as I wrote about it, I diddent wait for that (I can update it).

So people the soundtrack is soon release as mp3 as well XM. Please its better to play the game so most as you can  ;D, its cool.

I think Sokurah won this one.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 07:33:12 PM
Ok, I've sent the cover (to SF) with the sides, things were crunched but what the heck.
I prefer the jacket for stuff like this, promo cds and such due to the nice lamination as I usually break the the plastic easily.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 08:04:09 PM
Sure you do. Here's one. Case closed. Been programming on Horace today btw.   ???
(http://royshaff.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/pointing-finger.jpg)
Did someone say HORACE!!!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 08:05:43 PM
I usually break the the plastic easily.
That is because of your strong masculine hands!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 08:07:19 PM
got its, but as I wrote back (I hope you got the email), backcover is not directly a square format. I do think I also can do the change my self..... Should been pretty easy.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 08:09:35 PM
Aye, ape hands should do the trick.

SF, I wrote you back as I didn't really understand what you mean, sorta. The cover is 1024x1024, what is the, umm, problem?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 08:12:04 PM
He wears funny glasses? I don't know..

perhaps this helps
http://www.jms.aps.edu/JMS/Learmonth/files/PDFCDTempl.pdf (http://www.jms.aps.edu/JMS/Learmonth/files/PDFCDTempl.pdf)

Does not help with the pixels though?

(sorry - remember, I was just happy with a front cover :) )
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 08:15:43 PM
I have the actual CD templates from eons ago, all different sizes/shapes/variations-you name it. I can go with that in case the actual measure is needed?
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on November 04, 2009, 08:20:14 PM
Did someone say HORACE!!!

I don't know...did they?

...oh, wait...they did - it's on the Internet so it must be true.  ;)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 08:22:42 PM
I have a scanned inlay,its 1310x1024. I have do that in 1280x1024.

I like the backcover, because its easy for people for adjust the text if there is a problem after a print or even crop it if they want a that case you use. So I send you what I changed and then I let people adjust them self if its a problem.

Its easy and does not break anything of your work at all.

So Finally Thanks for the cover, its awesome. I update the soundtrack and upload again soon.

PS. SoundTrack with the changed coverarts is uploaded to same url I gave Lobo and Flash per email. Its up to them to release the soundtrack.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 08:45:48 PM
Ah, so wider you needed, Ok I see you fixed that already, cool.
As for the release, just send the stuff to Flash so he can upload it here?

EDIT: What I meant, I would upload it but in that case I would need to hack this fortress called Retrobytes in order to do so.  :D
So, just send it to Flash so he can put it on the front page.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 08:56:42 PM
SF, can you send the latest link. Just downloaded using the one from before and no covers and same name mistakes.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 09:00:28 PM
...oh, wait...they did - it's on the Internet so it must be true.  ;)

Hmmmmm. Horace!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 09:02:48 PM
Try it again, I've downloaded it and it's all correct.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 09:04:36 PM
Can you email me the link - mine is not right!! Tried twice now!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 04, 2009, 09:42:32 PM
Here, quick upload to 2shared - get it (about 50megs or so) click down there where it says 'Save file to your PC'

soundtrack

I'll remove this link as soon as you post the soundtrack.

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 04, 2009, 10:50:32 PM
I guess its not secret anymore:
Space_Fractal_-_Manic_Miner_DS_-_The_Lost_Levels_-_Soundtrack_(2009).zip

Here os the mp3 release inclusive coverats and all. I think the game could been included, but I guess not needed here.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 04, 2009, 11:15:33 PM
Thanks!

I am now off for 'food' :)

I will try to get a download sorted and a new post done in a bit :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Sokurah on November 05, 2009, 07:59:26 AM
I grabbed it from the link in Lobo's post last night (I was sneakily fast) and I plan to listen to it during work today.
And I love the new cover for it. It's cuuuute. :)
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 05, 2009, 02:22:48 PM
"Down the Alley" in the released OST sounds detuned... please tell me you didn't use WinAmp for mp3 encoding :(
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 05, 2009, 03:20:42 PM
I did that:

- Tune converted to 44.1kz in MilkyTracker after some changes to a endning (if needed). But these change did I NOT save to XM, so only heardable in the mp3 version.
- I converted it to MP3 in CDEX using these settings: 128kb -> 196kb variable, 44.1khz, Normalizing on (even it might have problem in very few songs).
- Bear in mind most sample fix was in 8 bit versions to suitable for the game, and did not fix the original XM of it.

On that song, there is very much "swooosh" and "reverb" effects on it, which could not simulate that 100% from FL Studio, but I guess it was sounded ok. In that Song normalized did turned the volume a little bit down.

Do the Original 16 bit XM sound OK? Then I do can recode it again using 192kb without variable setting and no normalizing.... Elsewise it can been a issue in the LAME encoder.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 05, 2009, 03:44:47 PM
The XM sounds detuned too, to my ears ??? I guess I never noticed it before because it's the bass which sounds out of tune with the melody, but you can't hear that bass on a NDS, you know.

Well, at least the conversion to mp3 is ok :P

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 05, 2009, 04:35:55 PM
nice spotted, the main instrument was detuned in the 16 bit version, but was corrected in 8 bit version. So I need to update the soundtrack with new version (I do also do a "patch" version, with only songs updated).

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 05, 2009, 05:12:31 PM
2 tunes updated....

Manic_Miner_DS_-_The_Lost_Levels_-_Soundtrack_(update_1).zip

Flash, please do a link into this one in the news as well updating your soundtrack.

PS. There is only one update.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 05, 2009, 09:21:31 PM
Commodore tune is the best  :D. I wish all these songs are actually in .sid (multiple tracks in one), that would be crazy!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 06, 2009, 07:11:55 AM
nice spotted [...]

You don't even imagine how much attention I've been putting in listening to XMs while coding libXM7... raina (http://modarchive.org/modules.php?80599), he knows something...  ???

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 06, 2009, 07:23:52 AM
My personal fave is the Highscore tune for some reason.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: spacefractal on November 06, 2009, 11:55:32 AM
It took some time to get 8bit version right without clicking and got the idea from the Space Harrier game, a tune I really love to. There was never a hiscore tune in the arcade original.

For Commodore 64 Sid like tune, it was actually samples from a older Sid player which could sample Sid2wav only using one channels at time and then used these as a instrument. I was like to do a Sam Coupe version of it, but was not possible, due it only export using all channels, so I did a C64 like version instead.

I think I should not vote on my own tunes :-D. Flash have even (early) studio versions (I use FL-Studio) of some songs, some got finished, some never got finished, before I began on the XM version.

Howover I really like the Horace bonus level: Darn simple, fast to complete, but still fun and cool. So that level is one of my favorits.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Lobo on November 06, 2009, 12:54:35 PM
You don't even imagine how much attention I've been putting in listening to XMs while coding libXM7... raina (http://modarchive.org/modules.php?80599), he knows something...  ???



So it's like a professional deformation or something.  :-\
Yeah, that happens when you're onto something for toooooooooooooo long.
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 06, 2009, 02:30:26 PM
It's like something, I guess ;)

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: sverx on November 23, 2009, 10:59:31 AM
I forgot to tell you about the news... I've finished MMWW finally, this weekend! :) Now only some bonus level left ;)

[I've been playing with ver. 1.0 so that I wouldn't lose my savegame... do I have to start again with latest now? Don't tell me...]

Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: Flash on November 23, 2009, 11:01:07 AM
YES!! LOL (unless you are using the FAT version)

There will be a V1.05 (final) version released soon though. So, hang fire!
Title: Re: MMLL Development Diary
Post by: UKLN5245 on December 09, 2009, 06:20:02 AM
 :)