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Author Topic: Manic Maker Designer Initial Fiddles  (Read 5348 times)
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Flash
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« on: December 15, 2015, 05:05:29 PM »

Got a little bit of time today, what do you think?


* MM1.png (27.98 KB, 2080x1170 - viewed 167 times.)

* mm2.png (35.39 KB, 2080x1170 - viewed 152 times.)

* mm3.png (32.75 KB, 2080x1170 - viewed 147 times.)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 02:57:55 PM by Flash » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 05:42:45 PM »

Just bear in mind, C64 have a wider resolution, which im would like to used that.

Also im was also thinking and properting doing the Horace music im did for Jungool, which could have suit both games, hehe.
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 05:50:44 PM »

It's not confined to any resolution. Everything will scale to accommodate.

The levels can be fixed to a screen or scrolling. Each level can define how you want it to be viewed.
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 05:57:45 PM »

I am reusing a lot of the balders code, so that's how come Horace and manic miner are now fully playable after less than 4 hours actual coding.

Want to add more Horace levels. It's nice to play after the slower manic miner ones. Actually. Wonder what would happen if I put Horace in a manic miner level. Lol. It's easy to do as the player controllers are separate from the main code.
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 09:28:14 PM »

...so that's how come Horace and manic miner are now fully playable after less than 4 hours actual coding.

Show off. Smiley

I hope I can find some time to play with this once you release it. Wink
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2015, 10:47:44 PM »

I hope I can find some time to play with this once you release it. Wink

I hope you can also. I was hoping to have released it by now, but work has been rather busy with the Christmas run-up.

What I may do is release a playable demo as-is and then comment the code and release that a little later?

Also, to get MM to work properly it really needs 16 frame walking animation. Even the DS version really needed 8 frames (it used 4 frames twice in the cycle). The frames in MM are quite important as the feet positions have to be exact (unlike most other platform games - Horace include). Replicating 4 frames over 4 times will make MM slide rather than animate per frame.

Anyway. I promise to release before Christmas regardless.

ps. It now has 14 levels to play with (over 5 different play styles), so fun to be had Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2015, 09:00:51 PM »

Im diddent notice it. How many did the original Spectrum version had. Im thinks its should something like that, since its should look like its on C64 (and similar ports).
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2015, 04:45:50 PM »

Im diddent notice it. How many did the original Spectrum version had. Im thinks its should something like that, since its should look like its on C64 (and similar ports).

The spectrum had 4 frames over 8 pixels of movement. He moved 2 pixels per 15th of a second (or there about). In Manic maker the unit is 32 pixels and he moves 2 pixels every 60th of a second. This means he has 16 positions within every tile (4 times the spectrum) though moves roughly the same speed.

Anyway. I decided to add animation today for miner. It looks fine but would certainly benefit from more frames.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 04:47:26 PM by Flash » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2016, 04:28:33 PM »

Well, started adding a level editor. Just doing MM for now, perhaps others later.



* Screen Shot 2016-08-11 at 18.27.02.png (203.1 KB, 2366x1496 - viewed 103 times.)
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2016, 04:24:09 PM »

ok, Tiles are now just white, the same as the spectrum and you can now paint them in any of the spectrum colours. well, it's a giggle!



* Screen Shot 2016-08-12 at 18.22.11.png (498.28 KB, 2354x1478 - viewed 89 times.)

* Screen Shot 2016-08-12 at 18.22.28.png (219.07 KB, 2358x1490 - viewed 88 times.)
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2016, 10:33:49 AM »

look nice :-)
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 04:12:42 PM »

Thanks mate.

Well, the one thing with an editor, it makes it quick to check for bugs. I found 2 in my MM execution relating to replicating the original as close as possible. One was to do with the presented animation frame when pushed by a conveyor against a wall. The other isn't really a bug, in fact, it works this way on the original game. On the final barrier at the top conveyor - if you jump and hold left (even though there is a wall above you) it is possible to stop your movement. I have fixed this and added a bool to turn the fix on and off. Personally, it is a bug that MS left in and i should remedy it.

Anyway, game execution of MM appears to be pretty much spot on. Better than MMLL inho.

The editor is working fine and also supporting actors - but... Need to think of a way to edit the actors within the editor in the simplest way possible. Personally, it may end up as numerical entry in a form. not sure of a tactile way to do it yet?

Oh, the color tiling is working a treat now. Almost making me wonder if I should add color-clash. Perhaps not. Best to revamp the game and keep it playing the same i think.



* Screen Shot 2016-08-15 at 18.04.06.png (181.95 KB, 2136x1256 - viewed 81 times.)

* Screen Shot 2016-08-15 at 18.04.16.png (128.49 KB, 2136x1258 - viewed 83 times.)
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2016, 06:48:31 PM »

Ok, start on actor editing is now in. Not too exciting as yet and only for standard linear enemies. But, its a start lol...



* 1.png (459.35 KB, 2580x1520 - viewed 93 times.)

* 2.png (341.99 KB, 2584x1406 - viewed 85 times.)
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2016, 11:46:16 PM »

Ok, start on actor editing is now in. Not too exciting as yet and only for standard linear enemies. But, its a start lol...

For positioning the actor how about adding a little arrow icon next to the x & y that allows you to position the actual actor on the game screen with your mouse / touch visually.

Another idea for showing the speed of the actor's movement is something like my Mame Joystick Map Editor where it has Mario's head in an area that moves in the direction you move the joystick.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 11:50:40 PM by headkaze » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2016, 03:59:30 PM »

Manic miner was the trouble-bum... It is a pain to set actors in it. I looked at several remakes and noticed that hardly any of them tackle miner sprites correctly (this is not an issue with any of the other games in MM). The sprites are 4 stages bit shifted. The problem with animating them as you would any other sprite is that when one reaches its bounds and has to turn, it would have parts of it showing over the area it was meant to turn on. Hard to explain, but Sokky will understand. Miners sprites are all 16x16, but the shifting guardian within is not. it ranges between 10 and 12 pixels depending on the frame.

Well, yes... I compensated for that, but then you get the issue of sequence drift as you have to relocate the sprite on a turn. A great level to look at this is Eugenes Lair. The two toilets on the left upper have a sequence and the second time they go to the left they turn together, and from then on they do the same every fifth time the upper one reaches the left.

Anyway, upshot is, after a lot of piddling about, i decided that Matty Smith knew best and emulated the spectrums was of doing it. Initial tests with the two enemies on Eugines level are spot on, so whoop and a hop and a skip.

For illustration i made the sprites have a char based background so i could see exactly what was happening... (see pic)

Now, the next problem is to find a way to move then smoothly rather than in the blocks of movement that mm uses.. hmmmm....



* x.png (404.76 KB, 2584x1522 - viewed 88 times.)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 04:10:37 PM by Flash » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2016, 08:04:10 AM »

The problem with animating them as you would any other sprite is that when one reaches its bounds and has to turn, it would have parts of it showing over the area it was meant to turn on. Hard to explain, but Sokky will understand.
Yes I do. Smiley ...and it's a thing that not every remake gets right, so I'm glad you're paying attention to it.  Kiss
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2016, 09:15:15 AM »

Oh yes. It wasn't important in the original Manic Maker as that was only really for the benefit of an example of tile maps and simple game code in unity, but now that I am making editor, these things have to be spot on or people will complain. Lol.

Anyway. Movement is not smooth (see below). Just got to tackle half pixel movement for the slow guardians. (done)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 05:02:13 PM by Flash » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2016, 05:01:28 PM »

First, good news - the enemies (horizontal) all move exactly the same as the original. whoopee. (Vertical next - they work different).

I had a brainwave for smooth movement. and failed. Manic Miner uses 4 frames over 8 pixels (a tile). In MM we have 32 pixel tiles and our enemy sprite is 64 pixels. This is animated exactly the same as the Spectrum. What I did initially was repeat each frame 8 times = 32 frames, one for each offset across the tile until the sprite is move 32 pixel and the frame returned to 0. Fine. Except, it makes things jerky.

So, instead of repeating the frames 8 times. I thought I would start with the first frame, leave it where it is and then every one from there on, i shift 1 pixel horizontally.

But, of course, that doesnt work because the sprite really only moves 24 pixels over the phase.

Anyone PLEASE help here with a suggestion on how to remedy this?

Here are the frames as the original 4, and how they are currently used. (ps. I went for the full 32 sprites just incase an HD version is added - nicer ainm then).



* Sequence.png (3.51 KB, 64x256 - viewed 118 times.)

* MM.png (6.93 KB, 64x2048 - viewed 93 times.)
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2016, 04:46:41 PM »

This may help illustrate the problem?



* fuck it.png (5.49 KB, 128x256 - viewed 119 times.)
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2016, 06:43:32 PM »

you cant just move and animate it on the spot rather recopy it frames (except if you want smooter animation of course).

Currrectly im are looking on Mason Tracker (A Spectrum based tracker, not good gui, but interface does works as intended and can find round how sound and instruments works). Its still very early for me how this sound chip actuelly works. (offtype, sorry). Property im might do a AY tune of the original tune..... This time with Spectrum sound, not C64.
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2016, 07:21:43 AM »

...Except, it makes things jerky.

Anyone PLEASE help here with a suggestion on how to remedy this?

I know - I've had this problem before. I don't really have any suggestions except to keep at it and you'll (hopefully) arrive at something that works. Although it's not the same exact problem, the reason we don't have a PC version of HITMW yet (from my hand) is because I couldn't get the movement exactly right...so I gave up as I didn't want to compromise.

Speaking of things that aren't 100% right.
...the jumping in your MM video. It seems off somehow. I can't tell exactly what's wrong with it...but it's not looking exactly like the parabolic arc in MM.
Is this something you've thought of?
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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2016, 03:38:13 PM »

Did some testing of the jumping and I believe it is spot on? Perhaps it doesnt look quite right due to the pixel movement? As you can see from the pics, a single jump from the start lands exactly the same as the original.

Ok, well... Smooth animation is now working, but i don't like it. To enable the shift of the sprites when a turn boundry is hit, a wait has to be added. The slower the moment the longer the wait. Still, it works and the sequences keep in check. I added an option to used either pixel movement or the original shifted sprites. (and switch does not affect level data or need any changes). so, 90% happy - ish!!



* Original Start.png (24.93 KB, 600x688 - viewed 79 times.)

* Original End.png (26.03 KB, 718x652 - viewed 85 times.)

* MM Start.png (37.77 KB, 748x712 - viewed 83 times.)

* MM End.png (37.34 KB, 652x816 - viewed 93 times.)
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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2016, 04:23:29 PM »

With all the frustrations, it is still a lot of fun to play with. All coming together nicely (well, for Manic Miner at least).



* Screen Shot 2016-08-25 at 18.20.28.png (317.85 KB, 2582x1520 - viewed 93 times.)

* Screen Shot 2016-08-25 at 18.20.42.png (138.89 KB, 2574x1518 - viewed 89 times.)
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2016, 09:18:18 PM »

Im thinks Manic Miner is a Spectrum game, newer been a real C64 game. Some of the tunes from DS was converted to Sid. Howover im found a nice little tracker (even with a awfull UI, its works as its should) for creating Spectrum AY music. Howover im do cannot compile those songs to TAP or AY (even better, since AY can been replayed like sid).

Here is the first Manic Miner song im did. Of course SFX should been like the original, using the beeper, then not effecting AY music.

PS. The forum does not accepts MAY file, which would been easier to post those directly....

* Mason Tracker.zip (0 KB - downloaded 41 times.)
* Manic Miner - First song.zip (6.61 KB - downloaded 40 times.)
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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2016, 08:06:37 AM »

Howover im do cannot compile those songs to TAP or AY (even better, since AY can been replayed like sid).

If you're interested I can send you something that'll make it easy for you to compile a piece of AY music into a TAP file. Just let me know. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2016, 02:09:32 PM »

Its was more the other way, so its can been played in a AY player, not TAP, which is used for the emulator. Just like sid. Im not sure how to been done, since im dont have 32bit windows to compile those songs (im should do that on a least one machine).

But by now im added the tracker program userd for possible open it (and even the "source" is there, its still for fun).
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2016, 08:59:26 AM »

The tune is great SF. Would be really sweet to have a selection supported in MM. At the moment in a Miner level each level can select from a collection of tunes. These are currently the original beeper version and a remix, along with a handful of the DS tunes (in c64 format). As you say though, the DS tunes are really not suitable for the Spectrum version. The only problem perhaps is adding the tune to the game? Is there any other format that could be used?

I have not done much in MM since my holiday a couple of weeks ago. I had got as far as (I believe perfect) Manic Miner execution, along with Blagger. Here are a few pictures of the game currently. Not sure I have set the correct colours for the levels as colour-blind lol. But it is easy to just 'repaint' them later.





* 1.png (137.35 KB, 1920x1080 - viewed 85 times.)

* 2.png (492.78 KB, 1920x1080 - viewed 82 times.)

* 3.png (525.89 KB, 1920x1080 - viewed 87 times.)

* 4.png (479.16 KB, 1920x1080 - viewed 93 times.)

* 5.png (173.11 KB, 1920x1080 - viewed 86 times.)
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2016, 04:25:57 AM »

im will property do more tunes in the Spectrum 128 AY style (which this tracker does using the and its possible to convert it to TAP, if you have 32bit Windows, which im dosent have). Its just a Spectrum like game fell more like a Spectrum game with the right sound.

Im will see a better way to get them converted to mp3. Sokky, can you convert the tune to TAP for me? (and eventuelly others).

BTW you could also change it to use C64 style graphics (Manic Miner DID come to C64 you known, which was quite accurate) with C64 palette and its limits.
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2016, 06:01:58 PM »

The 64 version has near identical graphics but with a different palette, so not sure support for it is needed? Not sure if there are any minor (miner?) differences in game play though.

The tunes will certainly be usable in MP3 or Ogg.
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2016, 01:20:03 PM »

except the C64version did not have color clash at all. But levels with sid tunes should more use C64 palette, rather than Spectrum level to avoid fell a bit wrong (if you ask me).
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