May 23, 2017, 01:33:15 PM*

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Print
Author Topic: Jungool c64  (Read 2105 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2017, 04:45:31 AM »

A little BASIC game for 20-30 years ago (im have not the game anymore). Recently a lots of sid tunes in SidTracker 64 (iPad).

Im have not done all MM tunes, so there is various Lost Level tunes missing.

The C64 Jungool tunes is last quite longer than the original one, sometimes they are double in length.

All my tunes is 50hz vbr timing, so they dosent use very much cpu time to play them. Its on purpose.

Sadly im have lost various source" for the tunes, since im my iPad 2 broke. im could also have exported them to PRG files. They play well in emulators.

Links and Pic now updated. Check them out (im havent checked for spelling etc).
Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 05:00:38 AM »

OK, will check it out. Wink
As for sids, it would be nice to have them all together in prg, a nice interface and such, would look awesome.

Logged
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2017, 05:06:53 AM »

OK, quick note, did check it out so the link is on the right side. Methinks, on both Jungool and MM, possibly separate MM & Jungool sids, pack them into a zip and put them perhaps to a more obvious space, like below the image with bold letters (always helps Cheesy ) and, you know, zip size, songs total, etc.
Might be easier to find then cause at casual glance, it is easy to miss the link on the right where it resides now. Tongue

Also..perhaps, just host the stuff on your host space instead of dropbox, lately bloody dropbox is annoying with those 'log in' or whatever crap, on your host it all goes *poof* and done. Tongue
Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2017, 05:11:01 AM »

Im can't do that anymore for half of the songs (those that was on old iPad). Sadly the Dropbox sharing doesn't work correctly with sid tracker 64 (its freeze after loading). Hopefully there exist a sid to prg or a sid tracker update.

I'm did ran out of time now, so it's was a quite fast update. The sid songs is a easy download anyway in file size and I'm have used folders for them. So by now Dropbox was fastest way, due new sid songs. Sooner or later I'm do upload to my server. My Dropbox account is also a paid one.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 05:14:23 AM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2017, 05:14:30 AM »

I'm sure that there is a way to sid to prg nowadays.

For the links, I mean..it would be more convenient to separate each to its own zip (Jungool, MM, Various) and offer at their own pages for those who want one or the other or third, etc. easier to spot them that way. Tongue

OK, g'night gotta go now to slumberland! Cheesy

Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2017, 05:16:55 AM »

I'm see what can do. It's just due the way I'm have used them and it's was a fast update. Sleep sweet. Im are out to work as well soon (it's morning here).
Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Flash
Administrator
Blue Gene Super Computer
**********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 12750



« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2017, 03:48:12 PM »

Ah, hehe here's then a jungle one, 320x but rescale as you see fit. This is how it looks on my CCS64-
It is done with limits and all (you can check that koala included too) but I have autocraftilymagickthingie hidden most of these. Tongue


LOVE that pic Lobo. I really wish I had the time to actually build a test level on real 64 hardware. Sadly, it's perhaps been too long and would take far too much effort to do it justice.
Logged

Coding for the love of it!
Flash
Administrator
Blue Gene Super Computer
**********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 12750



« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2017, 03:57:09 PM »

Love the Horace one even more so Smiley

Move the split topic here, not sure if this is the best place, and the topic is still a public one
Logged

Coding for the love of it!
Flash
Administrator
Blue Gene Super Computer
**********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 12750



« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2017, 04:03:11 PM »

The max for the jungool sprite would be 21x21, but you could use 2 sprites and to 24x24 along with a multiplex. this would leave room for another 6 sprites in a split horizontally. Though of course if you were not using multicolour, you would then need 6 sprites for 3 colours. Or, use a multi background sprite and an overlay sprite for a main colour.

ps. it is possible to use software sprites on a bitmap screen. Not entirely sure how many you could sustain, but certainly a 32x32 Wagga.
Logged

Coding for the love of it!
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2017, 04:16:19 PM »

Love the Horace one even more so Smiley

Move the split topic here, not sure if this is the best place, and the topic is still a public one

Cool, hehe, that would look awesome on hardware methinks. If you ever get your asm mojo back, we can do some little test, or as I suggested to SF like a little music disc, some gfx and a couple of sids on a side to choose from, always awesome to see those. Tho, I did notice a bunch of neat ide's for C= , one of them was this one http://www.ajordison.co.uk but there were others.

The max for the jungool sprite would be 21x21, but you could use 2 sprites and to 24x24 along with a multiplex. this would leave room for another 6 sprites in a split horizontally. Though of course if you were not using multicolour, you would then need 6 sprites for 3 colours. Or, use a multi background sprite and an overlay sprite for a main colour.

ps. it is possible to use software sprites on a bitmap screen. Not entirely sure how many you could sustain, but certainly a 32x32 Wagga.

Ahah! I knew there was some wizardry afoot. Man, that does sound like alchemy a bit, can't even think of what it took for some games which had extra large sprites to fit that all in (for some reason, I'm thinking of that abomination Red Heat Smiley ).

Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2017, 04:19:13 PM »

its was actuelly 24x21, not 21x21 (hehe):
http://dustlayer.com/vic-ii/2013/4/28/vic-ii-for-beginners-part-5-bringing-sprites-in-shape

Sprites on C64 is quite odd. On Spectrum would go for 24x24 instead.

The Wagga im using on my Jungool sid page is correctly 22x21 (downscaled from 32x32 and fixed pixel issue to prevent so less loss as possible.

Yes software sprite is possible, but its would not been 50fps at all, and you would not have that much left for the physics engine and enemies at all.

Hence im would choice 3 hires sprites for Wagga, so we would have left 5 sprites for enemies (more than fine), where multiplexing might even not required at all or simple 16 sprite one. Then you can use whatever colors for enemies, since they wont need shared with colors with Wagga sprite at all as well. The red sprite would not even need a animation when rolling.

Lobos 32x32 was actuelly a strected 3 single, so its would require 6 sprites total (which Flash correctly wrote).
Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2017, 04:25:18 PM »

its was actuelly 24x21, not 21x21 (hehe):
http://dustlayer.com/vic-ii/2013/4/28/vic-ii-for-beginners-part-5-bringing-sprites-in-shape

Sprites on C64 is quite odd. On Spectrum would go for 24x24 instead.

The Wagga im using on my Jungool sid page is correctly 22x21 (downscaled from 32x32 and fixed pixel issue to prevent so less loss as possible.

Yes software sprite is possible, but its would not been 50fps at all, and you would not have that much left for the physics engine and enemies at all.

Hence im would choice 3 hires sprites for Wagga, so we would have left 5 sprites for enemies (more than fine), where multiplexing might even not required at all or simple 16 sprite one. Then you can use whatever colors for enemies, since they wont need shared with colors with Wagga sprite at all as well. The red sprite would not even need a animation when rolling.

Lobos 32x32 was actuelly a strected 3 single, so its would require 6 sprites total (which Flash correctly wrote).

A quick question, if you had one enemy sprite, would changing color palette to make differently colored instances (say switching 1 for the other of multicolor(s)) work on the fly? Without too much trouble, that is. Tongue
Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2017, 04:51:22 PM »

no. C64 sprites share 2 colors for all sprites and one for each sprite own.

C64 can only display 8 sprites per line. They can been multicolor (3 colors) lowres, single color hires sprites. They can also been combined.

Red Hot example using 2x2 multiplexed sprites (property one lowres and one hires). So hence its shown 16 sprites here. but still not shown more than 8 sprites per line.

Creatures 2 also uses heavy use of great multiplexed sprites changes the charset palette a cross the screen multiply of times as well. Its even use smart sprite animations on the border. In jungool, small birds could been flying there:
http://grumbel.blogspot.dk/2011/04/c64-graphics-dissecting-creatures.html

Turrican 2 and Bobble bobble have great use of both software and hardware sprites (but they also not using bitmap modes). Etc the bubbles was actuelly software sprites in 19 fps, bub and bob used hardware.

So software sprites is clearly best with charset tiles, not with bitmap.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 05:04:05 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2017, 04:59:23 PM »

no. C64 sprites share 2 colors for all sprites and one for each sprite own.

So software sprites is clearly best with charset tiles, not on bitmap.


I see..well, that blows. Smiley
However, I was thinking of actual charset when I mentioned color/palette switch, not the bitmap. Somewhat I did take for granted that you cannot do anything with bitmap but charset, tiles? It looks in some games as if that worked (I probably just assumed that it does) cause I could see a whole bunch of characters, obviously same but with different colors here and there.


Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2017, 05:05:18 PM »

you can do that with charset, see Creatures 2, change the palette on a raster line. You can also do that with bitmap too. Im pretty sure its required for the pictures used. Im not sure (bad lines thing).

Shadow of the Beast also used smart use of software sprite, raster palette changes and interrupts. Im love that way they used the large red dragons in the outdoor scene, which was actuelly software sprites and not hardware (the clouds is hardware sprites). Smart trick (around 10:50 here):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3upIiioeVjM

Here in Jungool, we used bitmap graphics, so rest should been using hardware sprites for 50fps gaming. But in other levels, char its can been tiles of course, and in eventuelly in Creature 2 style.

PS. Sorry im removed some of my text. sorry for that.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 05:17:20 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2017, 05:13:53 PM »

they can use raster interrups. That was heavy used very insane in Shadow of the best. Some enemies was also software sprites.


As Daleks would say.."Explain!!"... Smiley
But I see..the technique seemingly used a lot in various demos as well.
Well now, something interesting learned today, that would be that c64 techniques are esoteric at best. Tongue

Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2017, 05:25:04 PM »

im thinks im edited to explain how the red dragon was used, which is my guess. Clouds is sprites.

Raster interrups happens when you change palette on the fly, multiplex sprites and much more on a scanline (and even change graphics mode in the fly). But generally im have not seen atari 2600 style sprites on C64. Its allways done that on charset/bitmap. But sprites can sometimes used to hide them.

Creatures 2 is excellent example (see link how its was done).

Also bitmap using 8kb, while charset only needs 1kb (+ color memory). So its faster to move thing around in charset mode.

But also the VICII have various strange bugs...... Etc to scroll bitmap in hardware and such thing.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 05:28:07 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2017, 05:39:06 PM »

Yeah, those gigantic sprites always baffled me, like that Dragon in Beast and that gigantic hand coming out of the ground but there were others, Turrican is also a good example. Tho, with some clever design, you can really hide some other 'flaws' or what was minimal in terms of tiles like in background or platforms which are mostly very repetitive but the rest is mind blowing.  Shocked

Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2017, 05:48:46 PM »

Yes, The hand was multiplexed sprites.  Yes Manfred Trenz is a cool coder :-). Yes there was some very clever designed with the limited sprite system if done right. But you can do multiplexed many times as long there is cpu cycle left.

In Lemmings (which im deleted), the foreground was multiplexed sprites, and lemmings was software sprites (the other way around than excepte). That hence you see the limited space, since the last sprite was used for the pointer. But in the tradeoff, you can see a lots of lemmings instead limited to just 7. Howover there is slowdown as well, but its a greate comprimse here.

The dragon was just drawed as its was a foreground. But its clewer use of software and hardware sprites in Shadow of the Beast. yes, even gameplay could been better. Its a cool 8 bit version.

In Jungool im would still go for the Creatures 2 style (me thinks) as best inspiration (even im newer played that game very much, im like the graphics). Im thinks some levels would been bitmap/sprites as the mayan level, which could works. The second one might want to use charset for scrolling. So its depend on level. The boss level would been bitmap again. This is what im thinks would works best. But allways only doing 2 way scrolling.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 05:54:19 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Flash
Administrator
Blue Gene Super Computer
**********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 12750



« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2017, 05:49:29 PM »

its was actuelly 24x21, not 21x21 (hehe):
But that would not be a round Wagga would it... So, the best you could do is fill 21x21 pixels into the sprite.
Logged

Coding for the love of it!
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2017, 05:55:28 PM »

yes of course. here you right. But 22x21 is also not that bad which im tried. but 21x21 is best, due its a ball. We dont need to use all pixels of course.
Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Flash
Administrator
Blue Gene Super Computer
**********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 12750



« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2017, 05:56:18 PM »

yes of course. here you right. But 22x21 is also not that bad which im tried. but 21x21 is best, due its a ball. We dont need to use all pixels of course.

You would have to use 22x21 for multicolour of course.
Logged

Coding for the love of it!
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2017, 06:01:01 PM »

im would use 3 single color sprites for Wagga (hence we can avoid to use shared color with Wagga and Enemies). Im doubt we would ever use more than 5 sprites for enemies, if we multiplex clever or sometimes not required.... Its depend how clewer the level is designed to avoid that.

We dont even need to use all sprites on screen as one. The Trolle could fly down using ballons instead rolling on the bridge example, after you have catch the butterflies or something like that (which might fly away or allways stay under it or fly away).

The stone part would property might been removed for that level?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:02:28 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2017, 06:11:02 PM »

im would use 3 single color sprites for Wagga (hence we can avoid to use shared color with Wagga and Enemies). Im doubt we would ever use more than 5 sprites for enemies, if we multiplex clever or sometimes not required.... Its depend how clewer the level is designed to avoid that.

We dont even need to use all sprites on screen as one. The Trolle could fly down using ballons instead rolling on the bridge example, after you have catch the butterflies or something like that (which might fly away or allways stay under it or fly away).

The stone part would property might been removed for that level?

Bloody 'ell, the physics would be crazy, you would have to find a different ways of doing so many things currently working in game. Although, hitting Jaguar in the nutters could technically work as it is. Smiley

Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2017, 06:34:46 PM »

Yes Its would, using multiplexes multicolor sprites (me thinks) and in a smaller settiing of course. Hopefully single screen level or slight vertical scrolling.

Physics mightbeen simpleced of course. But still do the job. Physics and sprites would been main focus. Not scrolling.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:41:52 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Flash
Administrator
Blue Gene Super Computer
**********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 12750



« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2017, 06:39:52 PM »

Yes Italy would, using multiplexes multicolor sprites l and in a smaller scaling. Hopefully single screen level or slight vertical scrolling.

Physics mightbeen simpleced of course. But still do the job. Physics and sprites would been main focus.

Physics on the level of jungool would be impossible. Even a simple vector (cube -> circle) collision test with velocity and rotational force would be impossible at a full 60fps. For example, the bridge is a no-no. The rocks on the first level are 'possible' using a simple circular distance check and an angle check to decide the movement vector, but... would still be very hard. Also, there is no chance of sprite rotation at all.
Logged

Coding for the love of it!
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2017, 06:55:10 PM »

Wait, where did that post of SF go? He mentioned Pinball dreams and *POOF*...went to netherworld. Cheesy
Wanted to ask..what? I don't recall PD on 64, only amiga, where did you get that?

Btw, if that was possible then pinball jungool level is possible. Tongue

EDIT:

So there is one indeed, gonna try it out in a moment. Tongue

« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 07:13:19 PM by Lobo » Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2017, 07:17:47 PM »

Server issues, SMF crashed, so im deleted (and gonna to rewrite again). Im deleted it quite fast (because im throught its hang).
 
smaller scaling was more meant smaller setting.

Yes the bridge would been no go (its not drawn on pic either), but its could been a plane instead of car as one of the required change.

You would still need to catch a mask and then hit it. Its a little change to avoid physics limits. But still recognizable.

Physics should go for Wagga only of course, newer the rest. That impossible, and also not required at all. Its a smaller setting.

Think physics from old pinball game really, not really Pinball Dreams, but even Night Mission (1982) also have a nice ball physics too. The ball physics should been something like that Night Mission me thinks (the game supported multiball, so).

PS. Yes im mention Pinball Dreams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgcSN6e68jA) which came as a very early demo to C64. The ball physics is VERY insane close to Amiga, even with bitmap scrolling. But there is no real gameplay throught. Im do guess they did ran out of memory for rest of the game. Pinball Dreams did came out to Amstrad. Very impressive.

PPS. Some games also used 25fps, which is also nice too :-). Bubble bobble did that.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 07:33:26 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Lobo
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3037



WWW
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2017, 07:36:10 PM »

Bloodyellandchicken, just played that preview for pinball dreams and it IS Impressive!   Huh?
Crazy stuff people do...


Logged
spacefractal
RBP Team Member
Blue Gene Super Computer
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3787



WWW
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2017, 07:56:14 PM »

yes its impressive, even its nowhere a full game. the game also just released to Amstrad to being even more impressive version. For Jungool we should do more do the Night Mission (another old pinball game) kind type, which is property much lighter on the cpu (its had 4 ball multiball here as im remember) and its even a Spectrum port (but a good one). Its its a old game, but the ball physics is still good for its time and would suit this game fine.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 08:03:00 PM by spacefractal » Logged

The Musician for the RetroBytes Portal Projects.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Print
Jump to: